Author Topic: Quoting Jesus  (Read 68833 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #200 on: July 21, 2017, 04:30:05 PM »
Vlad,

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I notice you have two alternatives to the disciples believing they had a post mortem experience of Christ. Do you have any evidence of that.Anything written down?

See whether you can work for yourself out what’s wrong with that question.

I’ll give you a clue: what would have been written down would have been what someone thought had happened. Why would someone have written down instead the various alternatives that he didn’t think had happened?

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As far as knowing if Jesus was dead it is written down that his injuries were pretty, well lethal.

“It is written down that…”. Think about that for a minute. Now try to work out a path from “it is written down that” to “it is necessarily true therefore”.

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Since death was perhaps quite a common experience I would have thought they would have quite a bit of expertise over death.

Which tells you nothing about perhaps half a dozen or more naturalistic explanations for what could have happened. How for example have you calculated how often in ancient times people were believed to be dead but were actually in a coma from which they subsequently recovered?

If I were to say that babies are brought by brainwashing storks you’d have no way to disprove the claim, but you would presumably reject it because it fails to accord with an explanation that better and more frequently aligns with the way the world observably appears to be.

Essentially all some of us are doing here is rejecting your equivalent to stork theory – and how faithfully the claim “stork” has been transmitted from person to person over decades is entirely irrelevant for that purpose, as indeed is the sincerity of the person who first made the claim.   
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 05:15:32 PM by bluehillside »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #201 on: July 21, 2017, 04:39:26 PM »
Vlad,

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There are several epistles and four gospels. That is evidence as would anything telling another story.

“Telling a story” is fine. You though keep trying to elide “here’s an accurate recording of something someone said” with “that person was necessarily correct in his explanation of what he thought he saw”. That’s the Grand Canyon-sized gap in your thinking.
 
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I'm interested in the word faulty. Faulty in what context? Careful now, the genetic fallacy seems to be following you about.

No it doesn’t. Stories re-told many times over extended periods are almost always “faulty” at the end of it – the game of Chinese whispers tells you that even with much simpler constituents.

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I think Jesus injuries were quite severe. Are you saying his injuries were exaggerated?

You’re shifting the burden of proof. A resurrection is your claim, so it’s your job to demonstrate that the injuries were necessarily fatal (and that it was the same person who came alive again after dying from them). All a skeptical enquirer has to do is to establish that severe looking injuries are not always fatal – a simple thing to do.

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Again isn't that the sort of thing that would have been used by the Roman and Jewish authorities?


What sort of thing?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 04:52:35 PM by bluehillside »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #202 on: July 21, 2017, 04:42:20 PM »
significantly unpleasant? Aren't you being a bit generous. Don't you mean they were a bit of an inconvenience?
So let's check them out then shall we - which of the following are necessarily lethal (as you claim).

1. Driving a sharp object through the feet - NO - although loss of blood could prove lethal, but the basic injury most certainly isn't.
2. Driving a sharp object through the hands - NO - although loss of blood could prove lethal, but the basic injury most certainly isn't.
3. Driving a sharp object into your side - COULD BE, but only if vital organs were hit - although loss of blood could prove lethal, but the basic injury isn't necessarily lethal.
4 Putting a scratchy thorny thing on you head - NO - unlikely even to result in enough blood loss to be lethal.

The most likely cause of death in crucifixion is asphyxiation. There is also evidence for people being crucifies living for days, perhaps even succumbing to dehydration. But the point, particularly on asphyxiation is that it can result in deep coma, which for people in those days, with no meaningful medical equipment and limited medical knowledge could easily be misconstrued as death.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #203 on: July 21, 2017, 04:49:49 PM »
There are several epistles and four gospels. That is evidence as would anything telling another story.
I'm interested in the word faulty. Faulty in what context? Careful now, the genetic fallacy seems to be following you about.
Faulty as it fails the tests for strength of evidence that I set out way back in reply 58. And lets not forget that three of the four gospels are considered to use the same source material, so they cannot be considered as three separate pieces of evidence.

But there is also the problem that people in 1stC Palestine had neither the medical knowledge nor equipment to be able to accurately verify clinical death.

Finally, of course, saying that someone else is dead is no guarantee that they actually are:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2004/jun/15/2

I think Jesus injuries were quite severe. Are you saying his injuries were exaggerated?
Again isn't that the sort of thing that would have been used by the Roman and Jewish authorities?
None of his reported injuries are necessarily lethal, except by blood loss. Spear in the side maybe if it hit a vital organ, but the report is that Jesus was already dead at this point.

Anyhow - I am not arguing that Jesus was necessarily not dead - what I am arguing is that you have no definitive evidence that he was.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 05:10:16 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #204 on: July 21, 2017, 09:35:08 PM »
Vlad,

“Telling a story” is fine. You though keep trying to elide “here’s an accurate recording of something someone said” with “that person was necessarily correct in his explanation of what he thought he saw”. That’s the Grand Canyon-sized gap in your thinking.
 
No it doesn’t. Stories re-told many times over extended periods are almost always “faulty” at the end of it – the game of Chinese whispers tells you that even with much simpler constituents.

You’re shifting the burden of proof. A resurrection is your claim, so it’s your job to demonstrate that the injuries were necessarily fatal (and that it was the same person who came alive again after dying from them). All a skeptical enquirer has to do is to establish that severe looking injuries are not always fatal – a simple thing to do.
 
There is no default position in history. Something happened or something else happened.
Besides even if you had the default position you are unable to say what it is.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 09:57:41 PM by Questions to Christians »

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #205 on: July 21, 2017, 10:14:35 PM »
There is no default position in history.
... aside from the methodologically naturalistic one, outside of which there's no such thing as history.

Apart from that ...
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #206 on: July 21, 2017, 10:55:02 PM »
There is no default position in history. Something happened or something else happened.
Besides even if you had the default position you are unable to say what it is.

Vlad,

The default position is 'things thatvreally can happen'. 'Things that can't really happen' include people coming back from the dead, which is a matter of faith and not history.

And that's not an issue, surely?

Incidentally, do you also accept the story of St Winifred coming back to life?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #207 on: July 21, 2017, 11:28:32 PM »
Vlad,

The default position is 'things thatvreally can happen'. 'Things that can't really happen' include people coming back from the dead, which is a matter of faith and not history.

And that's not an issue, surely?

Incidentally, do you also accept the story of St Winifred coming back to life?
He has also studiously ignored my request to confirm whether he thinks Icharus went for an ill-advised flight which ended badly.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #208 on: July 21, 2017, 11:31:20 PM »
Vlad,

The default position is 'things thatvreally can happen'. 'Things that can't really happen' include people coming back from the dead, which is a matter of faith and not history.

And that's not an issue, surely

Incidentally, do you also accept the story of St Winifred coming back to life?
Oh dear I feel argument from personal incredulity, repudiation of unknown unknowns, ignorance of the problem of induction, special pleading, unjustified positive assertion, ignorance of Karl Popper and a kind of non committed philosophical materialism all coming on which is like having diarrheoa, being sick, having cystitis and a migraine all at the same time. Embarrassingly for the early Christians there was no ''not history'' about it.

I'm not sure what you mean by faith not history anyway.

It still doesn't absolve you from your responsibility to address the issue of ''if not this, then what''...if what then where is your historical evidence

At the moment you are all articulating soundbites with no evidence of understanding.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #209 on: July 21, 2017, 11:33:55 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by faith not history anyway.
Your co-religionist Prof F F Bruce clearly got it. But I suspect he had significantly greater intellectual capacity than you Vlad.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 11:38:50 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #210 on: July 21, 2017, 11:52:04 PM »
Your co-religionist Prof F F Bruce clearly got it. But I suspect he has significantly greater intellectual capacity than you Vlad.
I think you must have missed my post some time ago which postulates what a materialist or group of materialists would make if they chanced upon a resurrection. One option is that they would express the event in terms of materialism.
Given that life is dependent on the organisation of matter then there is a possibility of a spontaneous improbable reorganisation of matter.
In this case resurrection has no inevitable divine connection.
Another reaction would be for the materialist to deny the experience, to be true to her philosophy rather than her scientific curiosity. They have also forgotten what is referred to here as the problem of induction. And also Popper who lays the ground for unexpected events and considers them worthy and important enough for mention.
Alternatively the materialist may convert.
Although the last materialist has detected the divine here that aspect remains faith yet for all the materialists who acknowledge the resurrection as a rare, possibly unique material event the resurrection would be a historic event.

This is why I think those who relegate the event to faith alone are missing the point.
Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 07:27:01 AM by Questions to Christians »

Owlswing

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #211 on: July 22, 2017, 01:45:55 AM »

Note that flipside you cover is also used by mythicists and indeed seems to be Owlswing's approach.


Not totally. I am prepared, given sufficient evidence, to go along with Jesus the man, but no further.

From what I have read on the subject there appears to be very little to show that, if the preacher Jesus existed, he made much of an impact on the Romans even in Judea. They seem to have written very little about his entry with 'a multitude' into Jerusalem for one.
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Gordon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #212 on: July 22, 2017, 07:15:36 AM »
I think you must have missed my post some time ago which postulates what a materialist or group of materialists would make if they chanced upon a resurrection. One option is that they would express the event in terms of materialism.

What is a 'materielist'?

In the present day a reasonable person would be sceptical, given the highly unusual nature of the claim, and would be looking for an independent investigation using suitable methods. This is clearly impossible regarding the NT claim, and of course the anecdotal accounts in the NT are of uncertain provenance and, as such, there is the risk of bias and propaganda if written by supporters of Jesus. Then there is the culture of that place and those times to consider, where people may have been more credulous in respect of religious narratives and miracle claims.

There is much to be sceptical about, and you guys seem determined to avoid considering the risks of mistakes and lies.   

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Given that life is dependent on the organisation of matter then there is a possibility of a spontaneous improbable reorganisation of matter.

Would this be a natural or divine spontaneous re-organisation of matter? In any event this reads like an argument from personal incredulity.

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In this case resurrection has no inevitable divine connection.

In that case either it can happen naturally to a three-day dead body, where there is enough knowledge now to reject this out-of-hand, or it didn't happen at all: either Jesus stayed dead or wasn't killed at that point and the resurrection element of the story is a lie.

Since you presume there was a 'resurrection' then the burden of proof is yours.
     
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Another reaction would be for the materialist to deny the experience, to be true to her philosophy rather than her scientific curiosity.

What do you mean by 'experience'?

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They have also forgotten what is referred to here as the problem of induction. And also Popper who lays the ground for unexpected events and considers them worthy and important enough for mention.

You're getting ahead of yourself, Vlad, by lurching towards induction and Popper. That people make mistakes, have biases and tell lies is known human behaviour for which there is copious evidence so that when faced with anecdotal reports containing remarkable claims an early step must surely be to consider these risks: you seem determined to avoid this possibility.

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Alternatively the materialist may convert.

How do you mean? You'll need to explain this point, since it sounds like you are saying the resurrection only makes sense if you first accept the divine claims made for Jesus - is that what you mean? If so then it sounds like a recipe for confirmation bias.

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Although the last materialist has detected the divine here that aspect remains faith and a historic event yet for the other materialists who acknowledge the resurrection as a rare, possibly unique material event the resurrection would be a historic event.

Then you'll need to find a historian, and not a theologian or theist, who treats the claimed resurrection of Jesus as being a historical event. You seem confused in that on one hand you note that faith is needed as a prerequisite for accepting that there was divine intervention but then you still seem to hang on to the notion that there is a naturalisitic explanation - sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it!

Even then you prefer to ignore one naturalistic option: human artifice.

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This is why I think those who relegate the event to faith alone are missing the point.

What point would that be?

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Hope this helps.

It has in way: it confirms just how utterly confused you are in that you clearly accept the resurrection as an article of personal religious faith, which is fine, but like some other Christians that clearly isn't enough for you and you end up thrashing about trying to find other ways to rationalise what is fundamentally irrational.

Your reluctance to consider the risks of human artifice is telling too, in that it implies special pleading that those involved in compiling the NT were immune from human failings.   

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #213 on: July 22, 2017, 08:06:20 AM »
Gordon

I can't decide whether your misreading of my description of a group of materialists chancing upon a resurrection not specifically THE resurrection  is due to misunderstanding, answering the post you wanted me to write or a fear of being persuaded that the world or even science might not be what you thought it was.

Two words for you: Popper and Induction. For the latter ask your man Nearly Sane or even Hillside who were quite ready and able to quote it to me when I suggested that something didn't exist.

If you are postulating that people never come back from death as a falsifiable proposition then it stands ready to be falsified...only one example would do it.

I'm afraid it seems you still haven't got out of argument from personal incredulity.

My reading of some of your responses is that you start commenting without having got to the end of reading a post and thus miss the gist.

So to put you straight on my little parable .........Three materialists chance upon a resurrection....
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 08:12:29 AM by Questions to Christians »

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #214 on: July 22, 2017, 08:11:54 AM »
Oh dear I feel argument from personal incredulity, repudiation of unknown unknowns, ignorance of the problem of induction, special pleading, unjustified positive assertion, ignorance of Karl Popper and a kind of non committed philosophical materialism all coming on which is like having diarrheoa, being sick, having cystitis and a migraine all at the same time. Embarrassingly for the early Christians there was no ''not history'' about it.

I'm not sure what you mean by faith not history anyway.

It still doesn't absolve you from your responsibility to address the issue of ''if not this, then what''...if what then where is your historical evidence

At the moment you are all articulating soundbites with no evidence of understanding.

You really don't know what I mean by faith not history? Ok. Thought that was KS3 RS but hey.

So anyway, about St Winifred....

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #215 on: July 22, 2017, 08:13:39 AM »
You really don't know what I mean by faith not history? Ok. Thought that was KS3 RS but hey.

So anyway, about St Winifred....
You seem rattled.

Tell me about St Winifred.

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #216 on: July 22, 2017, 08:22:01 AM »
You seem rattled.

Tell me about St Winifred.

Come, Vlad, even you can't mistake a shrug for being rattled.

Anyway. St Winifred. Historical person it would seem.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Winifred

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #217 on: July 22, 2017, 08:27:29 AM »
Come, Vlad, even you can't mistake a shrug for being rattled.

shrug ?
People never invoke Key stage 3 RS lightly.


Owlswing

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #218 on: July 22, 2017, 08:35:24 AM »

shrug ?

People never invoke Key stage 3 RS lightly.



Which people?
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #219 on: July 22, 2017, 08:36:56 AM »
I'm afraid it seems you still haven't got out of argument from personal incredulity.
Any news on your views on Icharus' ill fated flight.

Are you rejecting it out of hand from personal incredulity.

Or are you being consistent with your presumption for resurrection - whereby you presume it happened just because a few people said so, in which case you should also presume that the account of Icharus' flight is also true because a few people said so.

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #220 on: July 22, 2017, 08:37:40 AM »
shrug ?
People never invoke Key stage 3 RS lightly.

Whatever.

Now, about St Winifred...

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #221 on: July 22, 2017, 08:49:59 AM »
Whatever.

Now, about St Winifred...
And Icharus.

Vlad - you seem to have an impossibly low threshold of incredulity for the resurrection (or rather the resurrection of Jesus) yet don't appear to apply the same low threshold to other implausible/impossible things that people have claimed happened, as true.

Why is that Vlad.

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #222 on: July 22, 2017, 09:01:14 AM »
St Winifred is a person for whom there is historical evidence. I'm interested in whether Vlad thinks that the accounts of her being martyred and restored to life are true or false and why.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #223 on: July 22, 2017, 09:08:29 AM »
St Winifred is a person for whom there is historical evidence. I'm interested in whether Vlad thinks that the accounts of her being martyred and restored to life are true or false and why.
Indeed - and both Icharus and Daedalus are likely to have be historical figures too - there is archeological evidence to support their existence as historic figures. In both cases (or all three) the issue is the difference between the historic figure and the myths and legends that arose around them.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #224 on: July 22, 2017, 09:12:52 AM »
And Icharus.

Vlad - you seem to have an impossibly low threshold of incredulity for the resurrection (or rather the resurrection of Jesus) yet don't appear to apply the same low threshold to other implausible/impossible things that people have claimed happened, as true.

Why is that Vlad.
Firstly I have encountered Jesus.
Secondly I have spelled out the historical evidence against what I see as your bypassing of history
Did the Greeks believe their mythology was literal? With a little effort they tell me you can get to the top of Mount Olympus. Therefore on balance Icarus is a morality tale. Either that or the gods were not with him that day.