Quoting Jesus

[Shaker]

The present one is a bit worthy sounding.I did it to publicise a thread like the questions one you have on the Pagan board. Of course the thread was trashed by the usual suspects. I should have known. It was like driving a 58 Cadillac through the baboon enclosure at Longleat.

Yes ... like my pantheism thread on the aforementioned Pagan Topic ... interesting and pleasant scenery spoilt by monkey shit.

[ProfessorDavey]

No it is highly improbable.
Although I would imagine the amount of disorder to be overcome to be orders of magnitude greater than that going from a dead arrangement from a live arrangement of cells. Air after all is a gas.

No I think the opposite to be true as air is a rather simply mixture of gases, while the functioning human body is an extraordinary complex arrangement of molecules arranged into functional cells, tissues and organs. And the key word here being functional, and maintaining that function required constant input of energy that is useable by those biological systems, largely in the form of ATP.

 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes ... like my pantheism thread on the aforementioned Pagan Topic ... interesting and pleasant scenery spoilt by monkey shit.

I think there is scope for threads where you drop questions wait for an answer which may or may not be forthcoming and move on.without argument.
I think people just like an argument, an ad hominem, a showboat or a troll

Only a brave few agreed to the extra discipline of the debate board.I was one of them.

[Shaker]

Ah yes. The cardiac massage and CPR-requiring Formal Debate Section. Sterling work, Vladdychops.

[SteveH]

The gospels were written along time after Jesus died, I don't see how it is possible for even those who knew Jesus in person to have been able to quote him word for word years later. I very much doubt they wrote them down at the time he was actually supposed to have said those things. What Jesus actually said and the meaning of his words, could have been very different to what the gospels quoted him as saying.

How many of us could quote accurately word for word something which was said to us last week, for instance? The game of Chinese whispers makes my point well, a sentence which is passed down the line is nothing like it was when it started out.

The stories would have been passed down by word of mouth, and may well have been written down here and there, before being put together in the gospels. The gospels weren't written all that long after Jesus' death, so many people who knew him and remembered his words and actions would still have been alive. My father died 19 years ago, but I can still remember well many things he said and did.

[floo]

I think there is scope for threads where you drop questions wait for an answer which may or may not be forthcoming and move on.without argument.
I think people just like an argument, an ad hominem, a showboat or a troll

Only a brave few agreed to the extra discipline of the debate board.I was one of them.

Now I wonder what sort of extra discipline it is to which you are referring, the whip and chains sort provided by some ladies of the night?  

[Shaker]

Now I wonder what sort of extra discipline it is to which you are referring, the whip and chains sort provided by some ladies of the night?

Leave me out of this, please.

[floo]

The stories would have been passed down by word of mouth, and may well have been written down here and there, before being put together in the gospels. The gospels weren't written all that long after Jesus' death, so many people who knew him and remembered his words and actions would still have been alive. My father died 19 years ago, but I can still remember well many things he said and did.

Yes but can you remember them word for word? When things are retold often their meaning can be skewed.

[ProfessorDavey]

The stories would have been passed down by word of mouth, and may well have been written down here and there, before being put together in the gospels. The gospels weren't written all that long after Jesus' death, so many people who knew him and remembered his words and actions would still have been alive. My father died 19 years ago, but I can still remember well many things he said and did.

Actually people's memories are often extremely unreliable at remembering details of events - even minutes afterwards.

The gospels weren't written until a minimum of 30 years after the events. We do not know for sure who wrote them, but it seems likely they weren't written geographically close to where the events took place, resulting in significant difficulty in gaining information directly from those who might have witness the actual events.

[floo]

Actually people's memories are often extremely unreliable at remembering details of events - even minutes afterwards.

The gospels weren't written until a minimum of 30 years after the events. We do not know for sure who wrote them, but it seems likely they weren't written geographically close to where the events took place, resulting in significant difficulty in gaining information directly from those who might have witness the actual events.

As I have pointed out before, the game of Chinese whispers makes that point well.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The point is about the significance of accepting the claim.

The significance of accepting a claim of 100m in 80 seconds is minimal therefore we can allow a greater 'tolerance' within our deliberation. 100m in 8 seconds would involve smashing the world record to pieces - were it to be true it would be of the most astonishing significance and therefore there can be no tolerance within our deliberation - we need the claim to be demonstrated  beyond any doubt, with the highest level of evidence required.
I never said that running 100m in 8 seconds is impossible - but currently seems very unlikely so were a claim of that nature to be made we'd require the most stringent evidence or we would, quite rightly, discount the claim. We certainly wouldn't accept someone with a vested interest in the claim simply stating that it happened 40 years ago.
Theoretically - and I mentioned the notion of cryogenics earlier - which takes a slightly different approach, namely to preserve the state at death in effectively suspended animation.

But that doesn't change the point which is that were a claim to be made of that nature we would require the very highest levels of evidence to accept that claim - and in the absence of that evidence we would, quite rightly, reject the claim.

That may be the point but what is the justification which avoids special pleading and argument from personal incredulity?

If the scientific method say was the method for establishing something for instance how could you get a higher standard than the scientific method?

What's method could be more rigourous than say drug testing? For example.

[2Corrie]

The disciples spent three years with the Lord learning his teachings. Many of the things he said were  no doubt repeated as they travelled and taught in different places. And all scripture is inspired by God. How many Christians can recite his sayings from memory. It is possible you know.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

As I have pointed out before, the game of Chinese whispers makes that point well.

so all the Christians that were or became Christians had to stand in some kind of line without the possibility of stepping out of that line to get corroboration from anyone else in the line at any point?

[Gordon]

The stories would have been passed down by word of mouth, and may well have been written down here and there, before being put together in the gospels. The gospels weren't written all that long after Jesus' death, so many people who knew him and remembered his words and actions would still have been alive. My father died 19 years ago, but I can still remember well many things he said and did.

There is a difference though: those writing about Jesus were actively promoting him as having been divine, so had a vested interest, which raises risks of exaggeration or lies. The NT could contain propaganda for Jesus but its supporters seem reluctant to countenance this possibility.

[Gordon]

The disciples spent three years with the Lord learning his teachings. Many of the things he said were  no doubt repeated as they travelled and taught in different places. And all scripture is inspired by God. How many Christians can recite his sayings from memory. It is possible you know.

So what?

I can remember lyrics to songs and poems from years back - but I might mis-remember some of these if I tried to write them down. People are fallible you know.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There is a difference though: those writing about Jesus were actively promoting him as having been divine, so had a vested interest, which raises risks of exaggeration or lies. The NT could contain propaganda for Jesus but its supporters seem reluctant to countenance this possibility.

Two things here firstly how necessary was a resurrection for the definition of the divine, after all Judaism at that time would have had trouble with an incarnation let alone a resurrection. Secondly the NTtalks of Jesus as being resurrected by God, here They are obviously thinking of the human Jesus.

Given the trouble with incarnation the resurrection seems like an unnecessary embarrassment rather than a textbook piece of propaganda.

[floo]

The disciples spent three years with the Lord learning his teachings. Many of the things he said were  no doubt repeated as they travelled and taught in different places. And all scripture is inspired by God. How many Christians can recite his sayings from memory. It is possible you know.

It doesn't say anything good about god if all the Bible is inspired by it, considering how much unpleasant garbage is in it, but with a few bits, which are worth taking on board.

[Gordon]

Two things here firstly how necessary was a resurrection for the definition of the divine, after all Judaism at that time would have had trouble with an incarnation let alone a resurrection.

Er - to portray Jesus as being divine? How do define the 'divine' then.

Secondly the NTtalks of Jesus as being resurrected by God, here They are obviously thinking of the human Jesus.

And?

Given the trouble with incarnation the resurrection seems like an unnecessary embarrassment rather than a textbook piece of propaganda.

Not if that was how they decided wanted to portray Jesus.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It doesn't say anything good about god if all the Bible is inspired by it, considerable how much unpleasant garbage is in it, with a few bits, which are worth taking on board.

A32 edition magazine on World War 2 would have more unpleasantness in it. ..and that was the twentieth century.

[floo]

A32 edition magazine on World War 2 would have more unpleasantness in it. ..and that was the twentieth century.

Ehhhhhhhhhh?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Er - to portray Jesus as being divine? How do define the 'divine' then.

And?
Not if that was how they decided wanted to portray Jesus.

It's not about how I define the divine it's about how first century Jews would have defined the divine.
Incarnation was a no no.

[Gordon]

It's not about how I define the divine it's about how first century Jews would have defined the divine.
Incarnation was a no no.

So Jesus, as portrayed in the first century by those behind the NT, would seem very different from the conventions of the time: could be a good/unique selling point don't you think?

This seems like a risk that would need to be addressed by those supporting the NT content today.

[floo]

Divine is defined as being godlike, that is not much of a recommendation if god is anything like it is portrayed in the Bible.

[2Corrie]

So what?

I can remember lyrics to songs and poems from years back - but I might mis-remember some of these if I tried to write them down. People are fallible you know.

If you spent three years learning those lyrics from their writer and then spent the rest of your life performing the songs as if your life depended on them would you forget them?

[Gordon]

If you spent three years learning those lyrics from their writer and then spent the rest of your life performing the songs as if your life depended on them would you forget them?

I spent many years (more than 3) playing in a pub rock/jazz band several nights a week so I remember, say, Steely Dan's 'Do It Again' quite well (inc. the chord changes) but I could be mistaken, being human - as far as I know the disciples of Jesus were human too so were fallible - yes?