Child abuse cases

[john]

The latest case show once again that the perpetrators are almost exclusively Asian.

What does that say about the Asian community in general, that a small percentage of society group, is largely responsible for nearly all the offending in this one area?

What do we need to do about it?

PS I tried to put other words in here to define the exact offense I refer to but I couldn't. I presume there is some sort of automatic ban on three letter words beginning with s and ending in x.

[Shaker]

"Largely"?

"Nearly all"?

You sure?

[Rhiannon]

Is it true that only one community is responsible for this type of offence? You'd need to provide statistics for that. When I was growing up it was white men grooming and raping young girls , it was part of the 'boy racer' sub culture and I very much doubt it's gone away.

I think what we are seeing here is an organisational aspect where people with a vaguely shared culture are sticking together. And we know that in previous cases the tendency of the authorities to want to avoid accusations of racism along with bias against white working class girls contributed to the offenders getting away with it for so long. They may not have if they were white, which says a lot about the authorities.

It also says something about the way some men from a certain culture view women and girls, especially white women and girls, but plenty of men from other cultures share their views, including white men. It tells us nothing about Asian or Muslim men in general.

[Rhiannon]

Coming back on topic, it should be said that this isn't entirely about paedophilia either.

[Nearly Sane]

Coming back on topic, it should be said that this isn't entirely about paedophilia either.

Surely it's actually very little to do with paedophilia? In the main these are cases involving post pubesecent victims.

[floo]

All sexual abuse is evil, whoever perpetrates it.

[Robbie]

Is it true that only one community is responsible for this type of offence? You'd need to provide statistics for that. When I was growing up it was white men grooming and raping young girls , it was part of the 'boy racer' sub culture and I very much doubt it's gone away.

I think what we are seeing here is an organisational aspect where people with a vaguely shared culture are sticking together. And we know that in previous cases the tendency of the authorities to want to avoid accusations of racism along with bias against white working class girls contributed to the offenders getting away with it for so long. They may not have if they were white, which says a lot about the authorities.

It also says something about the way some men from a certain culture view women and girls, especially white women and girls, but plenty of men from other cultures share their views, including white men. It tells us nothing about Asian or Muslim men in general.

Very sensible post Rhiannon.
You said:- 'When I was growing up it was white men grooming and raping young girls , it was part of the 'boy racer' sub culture and I very much doubt it's gone away.'

Same when I was young, we'd hear about it in media occasionally. It didn't receive the publicity it does now. Also another ethnic group who were not white or 'Asian' & Maltese! It is the same now with the addition of Russians who are extremely organised about it.
None of these have gone away but depends on the area who is doing it predominantly.

Surely it's actually very little to do with paedophilia? In the main these are cases involving post pubesecent victims.

Agreed it isn't paedophilia.

[john]

Skaker & Riannon

Please read the following and follow the provided links as a starter;


I believe the facts speak for themselves;

Most of today’s papers show pictures with the names of the 18 people convicted in this latest case in Newcastle. The Times describes them as mostly Pakistani or Bangladeshi with 1 Iraqi, 1 Iranian and 1 Turk. Exceptionally only one white person was convicted, a woman! Carolann Gallon.

One of the defendants in the case was reported as saying to one white woman.   “white women are good for only one thing – for people like me to F*** and use as trash”.

Similar cases have been reported in; Bradford, Blackburn, Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham. In the Birmingham Evening Mail, Police reports, showed that 75% of the people involved in “Grooming offences” were Asian and 80% of the victims were white.   http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/west-midlands-police-report-reveals-7948902

In the Rochdale case the gangleader Shabir Ahmed said- “It’s the white communities fault for not looking after their girls”. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/shabir-ahmed-rochdale-sex-gang-ringleader-blamed-white-community/

The Rochdale case of course was recently the subject of a widely reported documentary and a play.

Iman Karmani a Muslim leader and psychiatrist thinks that a disproportionate number of Asian men are involved in child groomin offences.
 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html

A little bit of research will show up much more on the subject or you could try to access the recent TV documentary dealing with this subject in relation to the Rochdale case, I think it was called THREE GIRLS.

[john]

Robinson

You are not wrong.

But the numbers of people involved here is much greater.

[john]

See also

MP Sarah Champion says it is not "racist" to discuss this issue.

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-40886658

[Robbie]

Robinson

You are not wrong.

But the numbers of people involved here is much greater.

I see that, in the past you'd hear of a couple of men or maybe three (sometimes brothers) running that sort of thing, they had people running around working for them including women. It didn't get the same amount of publicity as it does now, no-one really wanted to hear about it it was so unpleasant. I remember when I was 15 mid 1970s, a case in a little dingy nonentity of a town just few miles from where I lived, you'd never have guessed. It was in the local paper. Taxi firms involved, drug dealing.

Now it appears there are entire gangs of men.

They must target young boys too. Boys are always more reluctant to come forward.

See also

MP Sarah Champion says it is not "racist" to discuss this issue.

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-40886658

It's not racist to face facts and speak about it. A very senior police officer was instrumental in bringing lots of "Asian' men to justice up North, an asian himself, he wasn't afraid to speak out. As long as no-one thinks 'they're all the same' because of course no two people are alike. Jamaicans, Maltese have had to go through that. The indigenous population carry on doing it virtually unseen!

[Rhiannon]

It's not racist to discuss this issue. However, it is racist to largely blame only one group for this type of offence without Home Office figures to back up the accusation.

[Robbie]

Yes it is.

[john]

Rhiannon

You clearly did not bother to read the links I provided....

Let me give you just 1 fact from The Birmingham Mail.

In the case of Birmingham 75% of all grooming offences are committed by Asians. FACT. Now I do not know what percentage of people in B,ham are Asian but it ain't anywhere even near 75%. FACT.

If you were to write to your MP and ask him what the Home Office statistics were for Asians being involved in grooming in B;ham.... After some research he would say 75%....Guess where he gets the figures from? Home Office statistics come from police and court reports.

[Enki]

It's not racist to discuss this issue. However, it is racist to largely blame only one group for this type of offence without Home Office figures to back up the accusation.

Of course it's not racist to discuss the issue, and it's not about blaming only one group for such activities. I think the racism challenge comes in two forms.

1) It might be considered racist to focus on these organised groups, because they are predominately from certain communities. I don't think it is racist to do so, as long as any group of people from any background are treated in the same manner.

2) There is a racist element at work in the activities of these organised groups. I would suggest that this does seem to be so, and we need to find out the reasons why.

[Rhiannon]

Rhiannon

You clearly did not bother to read the links I provided....

Let me give you just 1 fact from The Birmingham Mail.

In the case of Birmingham 75% of all grooming offences are committed by Asians. FACT. Now I do not know what percentage of people in B,ham are Asian but it ain't anywhere even near 75%. FACT.

If you were to write to your MP and ask him what the Home Office statistics were for Asians being involved in grooming in B;ham.... After some research he would say 75%....Guess where he gets the figures from? Home Office statistics come from police and court reports.

My MP isn't likely to want to respond to questions about Birmingham seeing as she doesn't represent that area. What are the figures for the country as a whole?

[Rhiannon]

Of course it's not racist to discuss the issue, and it's not about blaming only one group for such activities. I think the racism challenge comes in two forms.

1) It might be considered racist to focus on these organised groups, because they are predominately from certain communities. I don't think it is racist to do so, as long as any group of people from any background are treated in the same manner.

2) There is a racist element at work in the activities of these organised groups. I would suggest that this does seem to be so, and we need to find out the reasons why.

The thing about white working class girls being regarded as 'trash' goes across the board - the authorities - social workers and council officials, both mostly white from what I've seen - also regarded the victims as such. Is that racist too?

[Enki]

The thing about white working class girls being regarded as 'trash' goes across the board - the authorities - social workers and council officials, both mostly white from what I've seen - also regarded the victims as such. Is that racist too?

If you  really think that the authorities(social workers and council officials) who are mostly white regard white working class girls as 'trash' then not only would they be racist but practising class discrimination as well, and you should inform the police. However, apart from odd individuals who might well show such tendencies, I know of no evidence that illustrates your point that such authorities as you have mentioned actually do regard white working class girls as trash.

On the other hand there is at least some evidence that there is an underlying racism amongst the groups that have been caught by the police.

E.G. Mohammed Shafiq from the Ramadhan Foundation said:
"Amongst these criminals there is a mindset that they think that white girls are worthless,"

[Rhiannon]

Girls as young as 11 were regarded as making 'lifestyle choices'. Girls were arrested by police for drunken behaviour in the flats in which they were being abused but the men weren't. Yes, white people in authority regard white vulnerable girls as trash and it was obvious that they did so.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/10/victims-child-abuse-gangs-race-religion

[Enki]

Girls as young as 11 were regarded as making 'lifestyle choices'. Girls were arrested by police for drunken behaviour in the flats in which they were being abused but the men weren't. Yes, white people in authority regard white vulnerable girls as trash and it was obvious that they did so.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/10/victims-child-abuse-gangs-race-religion

Which has nothing to do with the your idea that social workers and council officials regard white working class girls as 'trash'. Indeed, most council officials, be they male or female, are from the working class, at least they are in my area. So, I'm not sure what point you are making here.

As far as the police are concerned, they should have acted much sooner against these 'groups'. I have no problem at all with that.

As John has already said, Imam Alyas Karmani, a Muslim leader, psychologist and youth worker thinks that a disproportionate nunber of Asian men(although, of course, still only a small percentage of the Muslim community) are involved in grooming offences and that the reasons are to do with the attitudes of the different cultures, and the attitudes towards white girls. In particular he makes the point that this small percentage see white girls as 'less valuable than girls from their own community'. Others have also spoken out, including Ann Cryer, then labour MP in 2003.

So, I see no reason to change my statement that there seems to be a racist element in the activities of these organised groups and we need to discuss this openly, find the reasons why and hopefully combat it.

The fact that one may point to racist elements in any other area is no excuse not to deal with this. I am fully in favour of coming down against grooming of any kind, whether it be by Asians against predominately vulnerable white girls or by white men travelling to Asian countries purely for sexual gratification. The colour doesn't matter to me. The racism and abuse does.

[Rhiannon]

Did you bother reading to the end of the article in the Independent? The conclusion is that this is predominantly about opportunity - the perpetrators are misogynistic against women/girls and target those that are available - which tends to be white vulnerable girls who are out in the evenings, unlike their Asian counterparts. And in the cases apart from Newcastle the men involved some from a very specific area - Pakinstani Kashmir.

It makes me think of the scandal of priests who abuse. These men aren't taught about sex, they are taught that women are inferior, they have to marry conservative girls from rural Pakistan yet they live in a sexualised culture that they don't understand. And they are exposed to a lot of porn. Education seems to be essential in countering this.

And if you don't think that the authorities believing that young white girls having sex with men three or four times their age is a 'lifestyle choice' is indicative of the lack of worth that these girls are valued with then words fail me. Do you think that the same opinion would have been voiced had these girls been from middle class families? And do you not think that people can be failed by their own class?

[john]

Rhianon

One of the problems that dogged these investigations initially is that "the authorities" were so scared of being thought racist that the matter was swept under the carpet.

A trap you seem to have fallen into Eh!

After all who cares about a few poor white girls!!!

[Robbie]

Not that you personally don't care but that these girls are uncared for by society in general. They're expendable. That seems to have been the prevailing attitude. They're not all white actually, all depends on the demographic, but that's by the bye, they have things in common. The police have historically been quite useless in such matters - better now than ever, they've had a few wake up calls - always having 'greater priorities'.

"...the authorities believing that young white girls having sex with men three or four times their age is a 'lifestyle choice'... " ! Agree,quite disgusting. Almost unbelievable but illustrative of the lack of care.

Social workers now are no longer the  stereotypical white middle class ladies of years gone by (like my parents' generation), nor the equally archetypal women wearing primary colours and Doc Martens of the 1980s, there are a great many black social workers. It's a popular career option for black women though there's a shortage of black male social workers unfortunately.

[Nearly Sane]

Rhianon

One of the problems that dogged these investigations initially is that "the authorities" were so scared of being thought racist that the matter was swept under the carpet.

A trap you seem to have fallen into Eh!

After all who cares about a few poor white girls!!!

I think that's a complete misrepresentation of Rhiannon"s posts, and one that is deliberately insulting. I think you owe her an apology.

[Rhiannon]

Rhianon

One of the problems that dogged these investigations initially is that "the authorities" were so scared of being thought racist that the matter was swept under the carpet.

A trap you seem to have fallen into Eh!

After all who cares about a few poor white girls!!!

I could reply to you but seeing as your capacity to read anything that I've said borders on the completely illiterate it'd clearly be a waste of my time.