Pigs as organ donors

[jeremyp]

What relevance does our past evolution and habitat have when we are talking about our present day diet?

Because out digestive systems have evolved to process a diet that contains some meat. A diet containing some meat is optimal for humans.

[Maeght]

Hmmmm, I'd say that unless we maintain those traits which could possibly, over a very long period of time of course, become apparently unnecessary and fail to be naturally selected for,  so that when another catastrophe arrives (meteor, supervolcano eruption, etc)the human species could well find itself becoming extinct because it will not have the adaptations it needs.

I think you are conflating the loss of knowledge and skills which helped us survive in difficult and different habitats with evolution. Of course, in the event of some major catastrophe the loss of such skills could effect our survival. So should we avoid living in houses with central heating, mains water, mains electricity and the like just in case?

[Maeght]

Because out digestive systems have evolved to process a diet that contains some meat. A diet containing some meat is optimal for humans.

Optimal in what way?

[jeremyp]

Optimal in what way?

Optimal for getting the required nutrients out of the diet. What other way is there?

[Maeght]

Otimal for getting the required nutrients out of the diet. What other way is there?

Overall health?

There are various views and studies comparing meat eating v vegetarian v vegan diets, but I think it is clear that in our modern world it is perfectly possible to get all the nutrients we need from a vegetarian diet fairly easily. It is harder with a vegan diet but not impossible. Many meat eaters are deficient in certain nutrients of course. In a different time or situation meat was the easiest source for man to get those nutrients. It isn't necessary now. It may be in the future following a break down in our structures and society. As I said I am not comfortable eating meat when it is not necessary to do so. If others are then that's up to them as far as I'm concerned.

[SusanDoris]

Overall health?

There are various views and studies comparing meat eating v vegetarian v vegan diets, but I think it is clear that in our modern world it is perfectly possible to get all the nutrients we need from a vegetarian diet fairly easily. It is harder with a vegan diet but not impossible. Many meat eaters are deficient in certain nutrients of course. In a different time or situation meat was the easiest source for man to get those nutrients. It isn't necessary now. It may be in the future following a break down in our structures and society. As I said I am not comfortable eating meat when it is not necessary to do so. If others are then that's up to them as far as I'm concerned.

That is still short-term, current day thinking. Jeremy has said it much better than I have.

[Maeght]

That is still short-term, current day thinking. Jeremy has said it much better than I have.

Jeremy hadn't responded to that post or addressed the point I made to you about other skills and knowledge. Why don't you give it a try?

Edit: Sorry, that sounded more confrontational than it was meant to.

[Rhiannon]

Isn’t the issue now that our ‘skills and knowledge’ have resulted in factory farming, resulting not only in greater suffering for animals than in either hunter gatherer societies or traditional mixed farming, but in overuse of antibiotics and pesticides, chemical processing etc - things we definitely didn’t evolve to eat or have in our environment. Yes, it’s possible to source organic, free range meat, but at a price, and even then labels can be deceptive.

As Maeght says, what we evolved to eat no longer bears much resemblance to our modern day reality.

[jeremyp]

Overall health?

There are various views and studies comparing meat eating v vegetarian v vegan diets, but I think it is clear that in our modern world it is perfectly possible to get all the nutrients we need from a vegetarian diet fairly easily.

So you keep saying and I agree it is true. But possible is not the same as optimal.

If you want to be a vegetarian, I have no problem with that and I think some of the vegetarian arguments are valid. Many of us eat too much meat. A lot of the animals used are kept in inhumane conditions (that applies to animals kept for dairy and textiles too, of course). On the other hand, a lot of sentient animals only existed at all because they are tasty to humans. Then again, many sentient animals never had the chance to exist because they were too tasty to humans.

But bacon sandwiches, omelettes, cheese, leather and wool tell me that we cannot live without a dependence on animals for the moment.

[SusanDoris]

I think you are conflating the loss of knowledge and skills which helped us survive in difficult and different habitats with evolution. Of course, in the event of some major catastrophe the loss of such skills could effect our survival. So should we avoid living in houses with central heating, mains water, mains electricity and the like just in case?

No I was not conflatinf practical skills with evolution. We had already evolved to be the species we are today before we found we had practicll skills. The physical body, the brain, nervous system etc were complete. They were, and are,  as they were because of the multi-million-years process of evolution. To take the risk of no longer eating meat is a risk, however unlikely, of allowing the survival of those with, say no canines, allowing for this trait tnot to become naturally selected. Okay, the chance is unlikely, but such descendants would be far less likely to survive a catastrophe.
 

Jeremy hadn't responded to that post or addressed the point I made to you about other skills and knowledge. Why don't you give it a try?

Edit: Sorry, that sounded more confrontational than it was meant to.

No worries! I think what Jeremy said is definitely relevant though.

[Maeght]

Fine.

[Maeght]

No I was not conflatinf practical skills with evolution. We had already evolved to be the species we are today before we found we had practicll skills. The physical body, the brain, nervous system etc were complete. They were, and are,  as they were because of the multi-million-years process of evolution. [

Agreed - not sure where continuing to eat meat comes into that though.

To take the risk of no longer eating meat is a risk, however unlikely, of allowing the survival of those with, say no canines, allowing for this trait not to become naturally selected.

Our canine teeth are needed for us to consume many things other than cooked meat, such as root vegetables, or fruit. If we all turned to drinking liquidised soup, then maybe, but I don't think we really have any worries about our canine teeth disappearing. I would think that the more likely issue would be our ability to digest meat.

Okay, the chance is unlikely, but such descendants would be far less likely to survive a catastrophe.

As I suggested though, there are many other aspects of modern human life which could result in humans unable to survive in the event of a major catastrophe. Why focus only on meat consumption? I would certainly think the loss of skills needed to survive in such a scenario is much more 'concerning'.

No worries! I think what Jeremy said is definitely relevant though.

Relevant but not directly answering my points to you. Nice to hear your own response.

[SusanDoris]

Agreed - not sure where continuing to eat meat comes into that though.

It seems clear to me that, if a catastrophe happened and you found yourself still alive and needing to find water and food, your survival instincts would enable you to kill and eat, probably raw, something like a rabbit if you can catch it. That meat would provide you with the energy you'd need to live another day. You would still have the brain to enable you to think of a strategy to catch it.

[Maeght]

It seems clear to me that, if a catastrophe happened and you found yourself still alive and needing to find water and food, your survival instincts would enable you to kill and eat, probably raw, something like a rabbit if you can catch it. That meat would provide you with the energy you'd need to live another day. You would still have the brain to enable you to think of a strategy to catch it.

Your survival instincts would drive the need to but not enable you to, that would come more from your skills and knowledge. You indicate this by saying 'if you can catch it'. You haven't said why you are only focusing on some distant possible evolutionary change coming into play in some hypothetical scenario rather than the decline in skills and knowledge which is more likely to have an impact.

[Sriram]

Its nice to see so many westerners supporting vegetarianism.   Something that was inconceivable a few decades ago.

I remember in 1971 when my parents, sis and I took a holiday in Europe and London....no one even understood what 'vegetarian' meant.

In London we somehow managed to find an Indian restaurant (Khyber Pass) and had veg Indian food. In most other places for nearly 15 days, we had to manage with bread, butter, fruit juice, cornflakes. Even french fries were fried in animal fat those days.   Finally, nearly at the fag end of our trip, surprisingly we  found good veg (Indian) food in Zurich.

On our recent Europe trip last year, it was veg Indian food morning, evening and night everywhere!  Absolutely fabulous! 

[Harrowby Hall]

I have an acquaintance who became a vegan about three yeas ago. He is rather sanctimonious about his dietary condition. However, he did let slip one day that he "needs" to take dietary supplements.

Do vegan mothers breastfeed their babies? They are, after all, giving their offspring an animal product.

[Rhiannon]

I have an acquaintance who became a vegan about three yeas ago. He is rather sanctimonious about his dietary condition. However, he did let slip one day that he "needs" to take dietary supplements.

Do vegan mothers breastfeed their babies? They are, after all, giving their offspring an animal product.

All vegans need to supplement with B12.

https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12

I realise that your last line is tongue in cheek, but it's as annoying as your friend's sanctimoniousness.

[floo]

Veganism can be detrimental to growing children as it deprives them of good nutrition.

[Rhiannon]

Veganism can be detrimental to growing children as it deprives them of good nutrition.

So can a diet of McDonalds and kebabs. And?

[Harrowby Hall]

I realise that your last line is tongue in cheek, but it's as annoying as your friend's sanctimoniousness.

No, it was not tongue-in-cheek. I would like to know where the boundary lies between commitment to a principle and the realities of physiology.

[Rhiannon]

No, it was not tongue-in-cheek. I would like to know where the boundary lies between commitment to a principle and the realities of physiology.

It wasn't? You are being serious? Wow.

[Nearly Sane]

No, it was not tongue-in-cheek. I would like to know where the boundary lies between commitment to a principle and the realities of physiology.

Might the principle involve the idea of consent as well? You seem to be arguing a specific definition of an idea without establishing that it is anyone's actual full position.

[Harrowby Hall]

Might the principle involve the idea of consent as well? You seem to be arguing a specific definition of an idea without establishing that it is anyone's actual full position.

I am not arguing anything. I was asking a question.

[Rhiannon]

I am not arguing anything. I was asking a question.

Cow milk is intended to feed baby cows. Sheep milk is intended to feed baby sheep.

Human milk is designed to feed baby humans.

It's really not difficult. And as NS says, it is about consent. My body, my milk, my baby.

[Harrowby Hall]

Cow milk is intended to feed baby cows. Sheep milk is intended to feed baby sheep.

Human milk is designed to feed baby humans.

It's really not difficult. And as NS says, it is about consent. My body, my milk, my baby.

I do not dispute any of that. At no time did I mention cows milk or sheep milk.  Human milk is an animal product - I am asking what are the limits to veganism.