Pigs as organ donors

[Rhiannon]

I do not dispute any of that. At no time did I mention cows milk or sheep milk.  Human milk is an animal product - I am asking what are the limits to veganism.

How come you aren’t getting this?

Veganism isn’t about not wanting to use animal products, it is about not using the products of other animals that cannot consent. You didn’t mention the milk of other creatures - I did because it’s central to the argument. It’s obvious that humans produce milk to feed their young and feed their young by consent, including in milk sharing schemes.

My body, my milk, my baby.

[Maeght]

It wasn't? You are being serious? Wow.

Double wow!

[Harrowby Hall]

How come you aren’t getting this?

Who says I am not getting this? Indignation is not conducive to being rational.

Veganism isn’t about not wanting to use animal products, it is about not using the products of other animals that cannot consent. You didn’t mention the milk of other creatures - I did because it’s central to the argument. It’s obvious that humans produce milk to feed their young and feed their young by consent, including in milk sharing schemes.

My body, my milk, my baby.

That's better - although this is the first time that I have heard consent on the part of the animal as an argument in favour of veganism.

My acquaintance (our relationship is not sufficiently close for me to consider him to be a friend) once sat by a table in a pub and proceeded to continuously excoriate five of us while we were eating Sunday lunch. I do not recall that he mentioned consent.

[floo]

Milk is needed for healthy bones, breastfeeding is for babies.

[Nearly Sane]

Who says I am not getting this? Indignation is not conducive to being rational.

That's better - although this is the first time that I have heard consent on the part of the animal as an argument in favour of veganism.

My acquaintance (our relationship is not sufficiently close for me to consider him to be a friend) once sat by a table in a pub and proceeded to continuously excoriate five of us while we were eating Sunday lunch. I do not recall that he mentioned consent.

I don't see Rhiannon's post as indignant, just a bit bemused. The not eating animal products idea isn't a principle that derives from nowhere. That you appear to have derived the whole arguments of vegans from a single conversation where you didn't explore the motivation in any detail seems s bizarre generalisation. And one that when both Rhiannon and I mentioned consent seems odd for you to react in this way.

[Maeght]

Milk is needed for healthy bones, breastfeeding is for babies.

Calcium is needed for healtuy bones.

[Sriram]

I think we should not make the mistake of treating all humanity as one in this connection.    Different communities have evolved to digest different types of foods over the centuries. We all are programmed to digest and extract nutrients from different types of foods.

People who are used to eating meat for generations will probably become  protein deficient if they suddenly stop eating meat. If strict vegetarians suddenly start eating meat their system might not be able to extract the same nutrients.

People who have never had cows milk for generations might not require it at all. Some communities might not be able to give up camel milk because their system is used to that.

Diet is probably genetic (and possibly also epigenetic) dependent. 

[Shaker]

Opt-out organ donation could be in place in England by the spring of 2020: https://tinyurl.com/ycogw4e5

[trippymonkey]

People who are used to eating meat for generations will probably become  protein deficient if they suddenly stop eating meat. If strict vegetarians suddenly start eating meat their system might not be able to extract the same nutrients.

Sriram bhaiya
Don't think anyone suggests that ANYBODY suddenly stop eating any food they've been eating for decades. Especially the most important.

We know we can get, say, proteins from other sources but breaking habits of a million lifetimes TAKES time.

We should 'replace' not just 'remove'. I think this is what you're saying here, nah?

Nick

[Roses]

Whilst I think it sensible to have an opt out policy, I still think it is a good idea to experiment on pigs to see if their organs are a viable and safe option.

[Shaker]

I would hope that the sudden increase in available human organs would obviate that.

[Roses]

I would hope that the sudden increase in available human organs would obviate that.

I doubt that. It would be beneficial if each pig organ could be genetically designed to suit the needs of a specific patient.

[ippy]

I think we should not make the mistake of treating all humanity as one in this connection.    Different communities have evolved to digest different types of foods over the centuries. We all are programmed to digest and extract nutrients from different types of foods.

People who are used to eating meat for generations will probably become  protein deficient if they suddenly stop eating meat. If strict vegetarians suddenly start eating meat their system might not be able to extract the same nutrients.

People who have never had cows milk for generations might not require it at all. Some communities might not be able to give up camel milk because their system is used to that.

Diet is probably genetic (and possibly also epigenetic) dependent.

Interesting the cast system isn't 100% bad it has been a guide in the field of D N A research.

As I understand comparing the trends in the D N A of each cast against another has helped in all sorts of ways.

I have noticed during my brief stay here on this planet that something good in almost every case  comes out of things that seem to be so terrible and unjust such as a cast system.

Regards ippy

[Rhiannon]

Thought provoking piece of research.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/16/opt-out-organ-register-unlikely-increase-donations-study

[Roses]

I cannot understand why anyone would wish to opt out of donating their organs, or a family would refuse permission. Once you are dead you are dead, and they are no further use to you. I would have no hesitation in allowing a family member's organs to be donated, if it was up to me to decide. 

[Shaker]

Thought provoking piece of research.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/16/opt-out-organ-register-unlikely-increase-donations-study

Even if true (and other research says the opposite) it could be avoided by having a hard opt-out system as is already the case in places like Austria and Singapore.

[Rhiannon]

Even if true (and other research says the opposite) it could be avoided by having a hard opt-out system as is already the case in places like Austria and Singapore.

I read that when Wales introduced the opt-out system a lot of people signed up because they felt that their autonomy was taken away. Personally I don't think families should get a choice if someone has opted in, or not opted out (depending on which piece of legislation we have at the time). The idea that we own the bodies of our kin is just insane.

[Shaker]

Exactly. If you've made your wishes known about the use of your body after death, that decision stands and nobody has any right to override it.

... research from other countries where ‘hard’ opt-out systems are adopted (systems where consent to organ donation is strictly presumed, regardless of their families’ wishes), shows that there were increases in the organ donor rate of up to 25%.