Author Topic: Non-realist Christianity  (Read 28060 times)

SteveH

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Non-realist Christianity
« on: August 13, 2017, 08:57:54 AM »
Let's face it - in this scientific age, the arguments for the existence of God don't bear much scrutiny, and the arguments against are hard to counter, in particular the existence of suffering: not all suffering, which is probably inevitable in a material universe, but the built-in suffering, such as parasitic worms, some of which cause hideous suffering to their hosts, but have to do so in order to live themselves; also horrendous genetic diseases such as spinal muscular atrophy, epidermolysis bullosa, and proteus syndrome.
However, human beings have a religious capacity and need (not every single human, before some smart-arse says "I dont!", but humans in general), so why not practice religion - Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or whatever - without pretending that it is a true account of the world: treat it, as it were, as artrather than science? That, essentially, is the non-realist position, espoused by Don Cupitt and others, and foreshadowed by Paul Tillich, and is where I am nowadays.
Thoughts? Come on, traditionalists - try to argue me back into belief in an objectively-existing God!
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trippymonkey

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2017, 09:01:11 AM »
What if none of this is real.?
Like a completely mad dream & when we 'die', we 'wake up' ???

Robbie

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2017, 09:09:02 AM »
What if none of this is real.?
Like a completely mad dream & when we 'die', we 'wake up' ???
No thanks.Horrible thought!
When I'm dead I want to be dead thank you.
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SteveH

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2017, 09:14:44 AM »
Well, this thread didn't take long to go off-topic!
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2017, 09:15:00 AM »
Accepting the precepts in The Sermon on the Mount and the parable of the Good Samaritan are all that is necessary to be an effective christian.

The myths, legends and fairy tales are incidental. The cultural values of christianity are the only important features of the religion. The Old Goatherders Book of camp Fire Tales is superfluous.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2017, 09:40:58 AM »
I think that myth is something that seems as necessary to us as any religious tendencies, maybe more so. Whether it is a way of ynderdtanding ourselves or a leap into another realm, I think it is a part of being human to tell fairy stories and deep, dark legends.

torridon

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2017, 09:43:25 AM »

However, human beings have a religious capacity and need (not every single human, before some smart-arse says "I dont!", but humans in general), so why not practice religion - Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or whatever - without pretending that it is a true account of the world: treat it, as it were, as artrather than science? That, essentially, is the non-realist position, espoused by Don Cupitt and others, and foreshadowed by Paul Tillich, and is where I am nowadays.

I think that is fair enough.  Science and reason would suggest there is no such thing as a divine being somewhere out there. Real divinity maybe lies in the expression of human yearning for divinity.  By yearning for the divine, we become divine.

Rhiannon

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2017, 09:52:01 AM »
That's well put, Torridon. A divine being 'out there' doesn't make sense. As you know I'm a pantheist - so to me the universe is 'god'. This is making me wonder if I see the universe as a single 'being'. Hmm.

floo

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2017, 10:15:49 AM »
The human mind is capable of great feats, which can convince people that even the weirdest things are true.

ekim

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2017, 10:18:41 AM »
That's well put, Torridon. A divine being 'out there' doesn't make sense. As you know I'm a pantheist - so to me the universe is 'god'. This is making me wonder if I see the universe as a single 'being'. Hmm.
That seems like the Old Testament Hebrew God .... Elohim .... the One who is the totality of powers, forces and causes in the universe.  Then to confuse matters, along comes Jehovah ... YHVH .... the uncreated Creator who is independent of any concept, force, or entity.

floo

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2017, 10:25:09 AM »
That seems like the Old Testament Hebrew God .... Elohim .... the One who is the totality of powers, forces and causes in the universe.  Then to confuse matters, along comes Jehovah ... YHVH .... the uncreated Creator who is independent of any concept, force, or entity.

I believe god was created, by the human mind.

ekim

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2017, 10:34:10 AM »
I believe god was created, by the human mind.
All beliefs are created by the mind, I believe.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2017, 11:13:52 AM »
Gods were invented to facilitate the exercise of power. Initially, natural events were explained as the action of gods and people who claimed to capable of communicating with gods gained power over others. The priesthood invented itself to be able to dominate others. In time this became solidified into an institution, traditions were established and belief became a social control mechanism.

A recent manifestation of this was the development of Marxism - a few explantory mechanisms ("rules" of history etc), self-selected priesthood (Lenin, Stalin etc) and enforced belief system. There even schisms - Maoism.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2017, 11:16:50 AM »
You are talking about religion rather than God I think, HH. People can and so experience something if 'god' without religion or the need for a mediator.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2017, 11:20:59 AM »
Let's face it - in this scientific age, the arguments for the existence of God don't bear much scrutiny,
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Scientism.

floo

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2017, 11:22:02 AM »
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Scientism.

Science has much more credibility than religion.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2017, 11:57:13 AM »
SteveH,

Quote
Let's face it - in this scientific age, the arguments for the existence of God don't bear much scrutiny...

Sort of. If by "God" you mean an objective, "out there somewhere" god then when religious apologetics tries to play on science's (ie, naturalism's) turf it crashes and burns. When it attempts more abstract approaches though it fails for reasons not to do with science - for example because the validating logic is faulty.

If on the other hand people want to attach the label "God" to internal experiences, meditative practices and the like that's just nomenclature.
   
"Don't make me come down there."

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2017, 12:18:51 PM »
Science has much more credibility than religion.
How does that help antitheism?

Shaker

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2017, 12:22:16 PM »
Who is bothered by 'antitheism' but you?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2017, 12:25:10 PM »
Who is bothered by 'antitheism' but you?
Non sequitur.

How does science being 'more credible' help Floo in her antireligious quest?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2017, 12:36:05 PM »
 If by "God" you mean an objective, "out there somewhere" god .
 
[/quote]

?

What do you mean by this?

SteveH

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2017, 12:43:29 PM »
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

SteveH

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2017, 12:45:46 PM »
Gods were invented to facilitate the exercise of power. Initially, natural events were explained as the action of gods and people who claimed to capable of communicating with gods gained power over others. The priesthood invented itself to be able to dominate others. In time this became solidified into an institution, traditions were established and belief became a social control mechanism.

I think this is too cynical. Inevitably, it was used by some to gain power, but it was sincerely believed by most, including the priesthood, even while they were using it to gain power and influence.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2017, 12:47:09 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Non sequitur.

That's still not what non sequitur means.

Quote
How does science being 'more credible' help Floo in her antireligious quest?

What makes you think she's on an "antitheist quest", and what makes you think that she thinks finding science more credible helps with it?
"Don't make me come down there."

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2017, 12:48:33 PM »
Meaning?
Meaning that science does not do God and therefore has nothing to say about God anddoes not scrutinise God as you seemed to suggest.

Any idea of primacy of science over religion is a matter of philosophical preference and not science.