Author Topic: Non-realist Christianity  (Read 28063 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2017, 12:50:35 PM »
SteveH,

Quote
Meaning?

Careful. "Scientism" just means, "putting undue weight on the methods and findings of science". Vlad though has re-defined it as something like "the belief that science can or will explain everything" in order to attack it. It's one of his fave straw men, as for that matter is routinely eliding "atheist" into "antitheist".   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2017, 12:53:01 PM »
SteveH,

Careful. "Scientism" just means, "putting undue weight on the methods and findings of science". Vlad though has re-defined it as something like "the belief that science can or will explain everything" in order to attack it. It's one of his fave straw men, as for that matter is routinely eliding "atheist" into "antitheist".
Hillside

Steve H is putting undue weight on science.

Can we move on now now we've buried your objections.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2017, 12:54:28 PM »
Vladdo,

Quote
Meaning that science does not do God...

And nor of course does it claim to.

Quote
...and therefore has nothing to say about God anddoes not scrutinise God as you seemed to suggest.

The problem there being that nor does anything else, but there you go.

Quote
Any idea of primacy of science over religion is a matter of philosophical preference and not science.

Actually it's more a matter of practicality. Medicine and surgery can cure you; praying can't.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2017, 12:55:47 PM »
Vladdo,

Quote
Steve H is putting undue weight on science.

Can we move on now now we've buried your objections.

"We" haven't, and I addressed the issue with SteveH back in Reply 16.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2017, 01:01:00 PM »
Medicine and surgery can cure you; praying can't.
Evidence of that positive assertion? Ha Ha Ha.

floo

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2017, 01:30:07 PM »
Meaning that science does not do God and therefore has nothing to say about God anddoes not scrutinise God as you seemed to suggest.

Any idea of primacy of science over religion is a matter of philosophical preference and not science.

Science doesn't do god, anymore than it does fairies, as there is no evidence either exist, in reality.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2017, 01:41:53 PM »
Science doesn't do god,
Yes....I said that.

floo

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2017, 01:43:41 PM »

Shaker

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2017, 01:46:44 PM »
... why not practice religion - Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or whatever - without pretending that it is a true account of the world: treat it, as it were, as artrather than science? That, essentially, is the non-realist position, espoused by Don Cupitt and others, and foreshadowed by Paul Tillich, and is where I am nowadays.
I've read a lot of the non-realist literature - Don Cupitt (a beautifully hand-written letter from whom I cherish) is a particularly interesting writer, I think; twenty-odd years ago David Hart was the chaplain at Loughborough University, not too far from me.

I've always found it fascinating, but AFAIC where the wheels come off is that it's a largely cerebral, intellectual approach to religion which is likely to be only ever of limited appeal. It won't catch on in a big way, so to speak. I have absolutely no argument with, and for that matter go quite a long way with, those who interpret religion non-realistically as a corpus of symbolic myth with "cash value" (as William James put it) insofar as it satisfies the intellect without outraging it as supernatural, personalistic literalism does. That's fine for some; but I suspect that a non-realist God is too much of an airy and bloodless abstraction for people - usually in fraught circumstances - who very much want there to be a realist, objective God out there who does typically goddy things. That's to say, I don't know how much mileage bereaved parents, or somebody facing their imminent end from cancer (for example), would get out of a non-realist God which is Ultimate Concern (Tillich, I think?) or whatever. For a lot of people Bertrand Russell's idea of God as cosmic older brother does seem to loom large, and the non-realists can't I think ever hope to compete with that. It's a little like the Sinclair C5 of theology - seems like a good idea, but it'll never catch on.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 01:49:37 PM by Shaker »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2017, 01:50:41 PM »
a realist, objective God out there who does typically goddy things.
What do you mean by this?

Shaker

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2017, 01:52:06 PM »
What do you mean by this?
You know the routine surely, Vlad - creating, judging, answering prayers, forgiving, not forgiving etc.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2017, 02:02:57 PM »
You know the routine surely, Vlad - creating, judging, answering prayers, forgiving, not forgiving etc.
Well then I think you are being a bit mealy mouth not trying to scare Steve H with a full on but merely insinuated ''God does not exist and you are stupid not to be not just merely atheist but out and out antitheist''. It will be interesting to see you and Hillside trying to schmooze someone into your point of view.

In any case eliminating God as creating is a bit of scientism on your part since..................... where's your evidence? and as we know science doesn't do God.

Shaker

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2017, 02:05:01 PM »
Well then I think you are being a bit mealy mouth not trying to scare Steve H with a full on but merely insinuated ''God does not exist and you are stupid not to be not just merely atheist but out and out antitheist''.
Some understanding on your part of Christian non-realism would seem to be in order, Vlad.

Quote
In any case eliminating God as creating is a bit of scientism on your part since..................... where's your evidence?
That's a poorly disguised negative proof fallacy. Tut.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2017, 02:05:53 PM »
Well then I think you are being a bit mealy mouth not trying to scare Steve H with a full on but merely insinuated ''God does not exist and you are stupid not to be not just merely atheist but out and out antitheist''. It will be interesting to see you and Hillside trying to schmooze someone into your point of view.

In any case eliminating God as creating is a bit of scientism on your part since..................... where's your evidence? and as we know science doesn't do God.

Science finds evidence to support its conclusions, there is no evidence to substantiate the existence of god, you haven't come up with any.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2017, 02:06:19 PM »
Some understanding on your part of Christian non-realism would seem to be in order, Vlad.

I asked you first.

SteveH

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2017, 02:09:44 PM »
SteveH,

Careful. "Scientism" just means, "putting undue weight on the methods and findings of science". Vlad though has re-defined it as something like "the belief that science can or will explain everything" in order to attack it. It's one of his fave straw men, as for that matter is routinely eliding "atheist" into "antitheist".
That's what I thought. It is pretty obvious that science now explains much that was once attributed to God, in particular the theory of evolution.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Shaker

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2017, 02:11:37 PM »
That's what I thought. It is pretty obvious that science now explains much that was once attributed to God, in particular the theory of evolution.
... which goes to show that if you go down the route of using God as an explanatory model, you're going to end up with an ever diminishing God.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2017, 02:13:05 PM »
... which goes to show that if you go down the route of using God as an explanatory model, you're going to end up with an ever diminishing God.

As science ticks more and more boxes.

SteveH

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2017, 02:15:49 PM »
I've read a lot of the non-realist literature - Don Cupitt (a beautifully hand-written letter from whom I cherish) is a particularly interesting writer, I think; twenty-odd years ago David Hart was the chaplain at Loughborough University, not too far from me.

I've always found it fascinating, but AFAIC where the wheels come off is that it's a largely cerebral, intellectual approach to religion which is likely to be only ever of limited appeal. It won't catch on in a big way, so to speak. I have absolutely no argument with, and for that matter go quite a long way with, those who interpret religion non-realistically as a corpus of symbolic myth with "cash value" (as William James put it) insofar as it satisfies the intellect without outraging it as supernatural, personalistic literalism does. That's fine for some; but I suspect that a non-realist God is too much of an airy and bloodless abstraction for people - usually in fraught circumstances - who very much want there to be a realist, objective God out there who does typically goddy things. That's to say, I don't know how much mileage bereaved parents, or somebody facing their imminent end from cancer (for example), would get out of a non-realist God which is Ultimate Concern (Tillich, I think?) or whatever. For a lot of people Bertrand Russell's idea of God as cosmic older brother does seem to loom large, and the non-realists can't I think ever hope to compete with that. It's a little like the Sinclair C5 of theology - seems like a good idea, but it'll never catch on.
I think you'd be surprised at how common a crude version of non-realism is amongst the not-particularly-well-educated. Nicky Gumbell, of Holy Trinity Brompton, the Alpha course bloke, once gave the game away when he said that many graduates of Alpha said something like "Christianity is true for me". He felt it necessary to "correct" them, telling them that it is true for everybody, whether or not they acknowledge it. Well, I'm with the "true for me" people.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2017, 02:19:07 PM »
SteveH,

Careful. "Scientism" just means, "putting undue weight on the methods and findings of science". Vlad though has re-defined it as something like "the belief that science can or will explain everything" in order to attack it. It's one of his fave straw men, as for that matter is routinely eliding "atheist" into "antitheist".
Hillside

I think it is disingenuous of you to suggest I have never thought of scientism as ''putting undue weight on the methods and findings of science''

That of course can be up to and including a belief that science can or will explain everything.

Are you suggesting that scientism is not worthy of attack?

If you have not come across extreme scientism you either have your eyes closed or should get out more IMHO.

Shaker

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2017, 02:21:13 PM »
Hillside

I think it is disingenuous of you to suggest I have never thought of scientism as ''putting undue weight on the methods and findings of science''

That of course can be up to and including a belief that science can or will explain everything.

Has anyone espoused such a belief?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2017, 02:22:39 PM »
As science ticks more and more boxes.
Dynamite   Tick
Diesel   Tick
CFC's  Tick
H Bomb   Tick

Rhiannon

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2017, 02:27:36 PM »
Dynamite   Tick
Diesel   Tick
CFC's  Tick
H Bomb   Tick

Sectarianism Tick
Covering up of abuse scandals - Tick
Religious 'dominion' over the planet Tick
Just war hypothesis Tick
End times = nuclear war Tick

Not to mention some humdingers to make you feel nostalgic for the glorious Christian past - Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch hunts, burning the wrong kind of Christians at the stake...

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2017, 02:39:43 PM »
Sectarianism Tick
Covering up of abuse scandals - Tick
Religious 'dominion' over the planet Tick
Just war hypothesis Tick
End times = nuclear war Tick

Not to mention some humdingers to make you feel nostalgic for the glorious Christian past - Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch hunts, burning the wrong kind of Christians at the stake...
Yes I think we know the problems with religion.
However the problems created by science are sidelined in nonsensical science vs religion intoning from antitheists and their bedfellows.

SusanDoris

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Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2017, 02:44:36 PM »
I think you'd be surprised at how common a crude version of non-realism is amongst the not-particularly-well-educated. Nicky Gumbell, of Holy Trinity Brompton, the Alpha course bloke, once gave the game away when he said that many graduates of Alpha said something like "Christianity is true for me". He felt it necessary to "correct" them, telling them that it is true for everybody, whether or not they acknowledge it. Well, I'm with the "true for me" people.
1. I'm anti-Nicky Gumbell. In my opinion he is a  complete fraud.
 How dare he muddle so many people with the stuff he promotes.
2. It is now 2:30 p.m. and I've had , This page can't be displayed' all day until now. Grrr!
3. I think it is a waste of precious living time to give the idea of an objective God any actual credibility.  It is easy to understand how god beliefs arose from superstitious answers to the questions that humans thought up about the world around them.
4. There is so much of great interest in the world of Science to learn which one can have belief in because it works.
5. The more anyone learns about god beliefs the more we  understand human behaviour and can take it forward  and, one hopes, make sensible, practical progress in the future.


Okay, now it looks as if I have a bit of catching up to do!!
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