Taylor Swift and why groping is wrong.

[Nearly Sane]

Seems to me well done




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/40931988

[Rhiannon]

Can't get the link to work but I've read what I think is the same piece.

Groping was a fact of life for me growing up. Probably for most women. And I didn't report any of it. As an aside, the worst groping (actually a sexual assault) I experienced was from a boy the same age as me and I didn't report it because I thought that it would just be dismissed as 'bullying', which nobody gave a shit about.

[Nearly Sane]

Edited link. And I agree but that is why this case seems good to me

[Rhiannon]

Oh, totally. Disappointing it's taken so long but hey.

[Owlswing]

Can't get the link to work but I've read what I think is the same piece.

Groping was a fact of life for me growing up. Probably for most women. And I didn't report any of it. As an aside, the worst groping (actually a sexual assault) I experienced was from a boy the same age as me and I didn't report it because I thought that it would just be dismissed as 'bullying', which nobody gave a shit about.

My younger daughter had her not inconsiderable boobs groped by a Somali boy in class (being tahught by the Headmaster) when she was 12 and when she complianed she was told she was too sensitive and to grow a skin! Another girl in the class told her she was lucky she was so big as it meant that the boys liked her so she should shut up and enjoy it!

[Rhiannon]

Sexual assault was routine back in the 80s when I was a teen. In school, in the park, at discos... I hope things have changed.

[floo]

Sexual assault is a CRIME and should be treated as such.

[Maeght]

Sexual assault was routine back in the 80s when I was a teen. In school, in the park, at discos... I hope things have changed.

Shocking looking back at some of the things I know went on when I was at school. I really hope it is different now but sadly expect not.

[Maeght]

My younger daughter had her not inconsiderable boobs groped by a Somali boy in class (being tahught by the Headmaster) when she was 12 and when she complianed she was told she was too sensitive and to grow a skin! Another girl in the class told her she was lucky she was so big as it meant that the boys liked her so she should shut up and enjoy it!

How awful.

[floo]

As I have mentioned before, the pastor of the Elim Pentecostal church I attended as a kid touched me inappropriately when I was 14.

[Maeght]

I wonder how much of this 'adult on adult' type groping goes on.

[ippy]

This thread has reminded me of my Dad, he saw his sister travelling on the underground near to where he was seated, she hadn't seen him, so he bided his time, timed it right and pulled her on to his lap, where he promptly got his face slapped, it goes to show that it's not always wrong to manhandle women.

Just thought I would share this, it makes me smile when I think of this it was so typical of him.

ippy

[Robbie]

How old was she for goodness sake? Old enough to travel alone on the Underground so probably over the age of 12.
It must have been excruciatingly embarrassing for herto have her dad pull her onto his lap. A weird thing to do.

I wonder how much of this 'adult on adult' type groping goes on.

Quite a bit but less than it was because women complain now. Years ago they didn't know whether what happened was right or wrong.
Not just groping but remarks. Also sending photos on phones, like pictures of a man's bits. Uninvited. Oh wot a laugh (NOT).

Sexual assault was routine back in the 80s when I was a teen. In school, in the park, at discos... I hope things have changed.

Better than it was but still happens. Amazing what we put up with (I'm older than you, teenager in 70s, worked from early 80s). Suggestive talk, pulling ("pinging") bra strap, touching legs (are they stockings or tights?). Horrible.

[Rhiannon]

I remember butt slapping, pinching, boob grabbing as being the norm. Worse was not uncommon. Nobody reported it.

I've not had a problem as an adult but had I been one for clubs I expect I would have, at least when younger. But I know it's an issue for young women on nights out still, and at festivals. Job wise I think it is still an issue for those in certain jobs - waiting tables, bar staff, cabin crew etc. Anything where the customer is 'boss' and possibly involving alcohol.

[Nearly Sane]

How old was she for goodness sake? Old enough to travel alone on the Underground so probably over the age of 12.
It must have been excruciatingly embarrassing for herto have her dad pull her onto his lap. A weird thing to do.

Quite a bit but less than it was because women complain now. Years ago they didn't know whether what happened was right or wrong.
Not just groping but remarks. Also sending photos on phones, like pictures of a man's bits. Uninvited. Oh wot a laugh (NOT).

Better than it was but still happens. Amazing what we put up with (I'm older than you, teenager in 70s, worked from early 80s). Suggestive talk, pulling ("pinging") bra strap, touching legs (are they stockings or tights?). Horrible.

I despise all of that, and I know I have to check my privilege because I rarely suffer from physical intimidation but try being the only person wearing a kilt at a wedding.

Given the phone stuff couldn't have happened not sure that we can say things are better. The impact of easily accessible hardcore por*n also seems unlikely to help

BTW I think it was ippy's father and his father's sister he was talking. Still seems a bit odd though, I agree


ETA One of the words that the server filter has conniptions at is po*rn

[Robbie]

I don't suppose he meant any harm but it does seem odd.
The phone stuff didn't happen in years past but has done now for a long time.
About two years ago I had dealings with a young woman, attractive, early 30s, who had a couple of pictures sent to her by email from a man in his sixties,near retirement age, whoworked in her building.

It was very stressful for her, she's a quiet rather shy girl. He kept on harrassing her (in jokey way), the photographs of his privates was the last straw. I saw them.Thinking about it again now, how dared he. I told her the first thing was to go to HR and show them the emails and pictures which she did, took someone with her, and would you believe they laughed it off.

She could have taken it further but just wanted it to be over,was easier for her to get another job. She was off sick for a while with anxiety before she did that but that's what happened in the end - while he stays to insult someone else unless he's retired since.

[Nearly Sane]

That's an horrendous attitude from the HR dept. And one which they opened themselves up to being sued on. I can understand why she didn't want to pursue but pursue but she could have won such a case easily.

[floo]

I despise all of that, and I know I have to check my privilege because I rarely suffer from physical intimidation but try being the only person wearing a kilt at a wedding.

Given the phone stuff couldn't have happened not sure that we can say things are better. The impact of easily accessible hardcore por*n also seems unlikely to help

BTW I think it was ippy's father and his father's sister he was talking. Still seems a bit odd though, I agree


ETA One of the words that the server filter has conniptions at is po*rn

Have you had a problem when wearing a kilt? My son-in-law wears his kilt most of the time when he isn't at work, he lives in Warwickshire. I don't think he has had a problem when wearing it.

[Robbie]

That's an horrendous attitude from the HR dept. And one which they opened themselves up to being sued on. I can understand why she didn't want to pursue but pursue but she could have won such a case easily.

Yes NS, i wanted er to pursue it and put her in touch with a good legal aid solicitor whom I know well & occasionally have professional dealings with.A lovely lady. They had a consultation & it looked as though she would go ahead but these things take time, she was off sick with anxiety (had awful flare of psoriasis too), found other employment & then felt she wanted it behind her. Her boyfriend wanted to support her in a claim but she just said "No" in the end.

Having to go off sick & find another job was really being hounded out but I suppose she just feels it's all over and done with. It was,thinking about it, maybe a bit more than three years ago.

The HR bod at her firm was useless, totally unprofessional. Not properly trained. I was appalled.

My solicitor friend said she comes up against similar cases all the time.

[Nearly Sane]

I have nothing but sympathy for her in not wanting to pursue. My feeling is that things have not much changed over the years so there are still so many cases where nothing happens. Whether there are more or less we are both guessing but I worry that this continues to be hugely underreported which is why I think the action by Taylor Swift is very much a good thing

[Rhiannon]

I am staggered by the ineptitude of HR droadntd on all kinds of issues.

I don't know why it is that dick pics are seen to be ok by people who would report flashing to the police.

[Robbie]

Precisely. I was an HR manager prior to taking up my present job twelve years ago. I was properly trained, studied, kept up to date with policies & so did others who worked in HR. It would have been unthinkable to be otherwise. However the girl I am talking about didn't work for a blue chip firm  and the HR officer was an admin person who had some personnel duties added on. Definitely no CIPD or equivalent.

(I have altered a tiny bit in the story & left some things out so that she cannot be identified. Very much doubt if she or any of her friends or family would even think of searching the web for a 'R&E' forum though. Facebook quite likely.)

[Rhiannon]

Agreed. HR in small firms are atrocious. I'm helping someone through something at the moment (not sexual harassment) and can't believe what their employer is doing.

[ippy]

How old was she for goodness sake? Old enough to travel alone on the Underground so probably over the age of 12.
It must have been excruciatingly embarrassing for herto have her dad pull her onto his lap. A weird thing to do.

Quite a bit but less than it was because women complain now. Years ago they didn't know whether what happened was right or wrong.
Not just groping but remarks. Also sending photos on phones, like pictures of a man's bits. Uninvited. Oh wot a laugh (NOT).

Better than it was but still happens. Amazing what we put up with (I'm older than you, teenager in 70s, worked from early 80s). Suggestive talk, pulling ("pinging") bra strap, touching legs (are they stockings or tights?). Horrible.

It must be a wonderful thing for you Rob having such a natural broad sense of humour.

ippy

[Robbie]

Ye-ah. I wasn't having a go ippy,sure it would seem funny at the time. Not something a person would do now though, times have changed. Which is exactly what we're all saying on this thread.

Agreed. HR in small firms are atrocious. I'm helping someone through something at the moment (not sexual harassment) and can't believe what their employer is doing.

Grim stuff. Some small firms are good, we can't tar them all with teh same brush. A lot depends on the the individual HR manager. Frankly, those who are bad need to be shown up for their lack of discretion, kindness and general professionalism, they don't need a diploma to possess those qualities. Shame on the firms for not demanding higher standards - probably because they pay lower salaries & there's not much in the way of career progression.

I wish a good outcome for the person you're helping.