Can white people speak out on racism?

[Rhiannon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/40949192/how-white-people-like-lady-gaga-can-speak-out-online-about-racism

'Chardine believes "saying that, 'We are all the same' is the worst thing a white person can do."

[Robbie]

Thanks for that, I will re-read and think about it. Some good points raised.

Instant reaction - yes, white people can speak out on racism if they really understand what it is. White people can experience anti-white racism or racism regarding their country in some circumstances, eg if they are living abroad.

Also someone who has a relative or a partner of a different race & maybe children will certainly face racism albeit second hand - but it will burn as hard as first hand if not more so when it concerns loved ones.

Another type of what I call "second hand racism" is the deep shame felt when in the company of people who are spouting it behind the backs of those of whom they speak, not always easy to avoid if it's colleagues or older family members doing it. At the table for example. I remember being reduced to tears when I was younger because of what I heard somewhere(not my family I'm happy to say), wouldn't happen now because I'd speak out. Not preach but gently remind everyone of the golden rule (the basis of an Equal Opportunities statement/policy which I've been involved in writing in the past), do as you would be done by. Then change the subject.

Just my thoughts, not directly concerning what Lady Gaga is speaking about though I'm sure she'd recognise what I say.

Sorry for bad grammah! Off to bed now.

Thanks again.

A quick add: programme on ITV3 in the background now about Elvis but just heard Martin Luther King speaking - "I have a dream..."

No we are not all the same except for sharing humanity; to completely ignore differences is ignoring an itegral part of a person.  However not generally noticing racial differences is not the same as ignoring.

[floo]

Of course white people should speak out on racism or any other discrimination. One of our adopted sons is black.

[Rhiannon]

I'm concerned by the idea that we aren't all the same, and by extension some can't have an opinion. Our experiences aren't the same, certainly, but that goes across the board - someone who has not been raped doesn't know what it's like to live with that, someone who has not lived with domestic violence doesn't know that, even someone who is female doesn't know what it's like to live as a man. Yet we think people without direct experience of assault or abuse should be able to speak about these things; indeed, as a woman I welcome male involvement in the debate on violence against women and I'm also aware that men experience these things too and want to hear their stories.

This seems to me to be an echo of the 'all men are rapists' shit that was popular a few years ago - all white people are racist. It worries me.

[Udayana]

Anyone can have an opinion and speak against racism. We are not "all the same" though, if we were there wouldn't be racism. 

Most of us harbour some elements of racism, we may learn to recognise them and deal with other people according to who they actually are rather than with identity politics based on superficial indicators of group membership.

[Rhiannon]

Well I guess it depends on what we mean by 'all the same'. I don't know what it's like to be blonde, or male, or blind. Every single one of us is different and living a unique experience. But we still have similar emotions, aspirations and needs. Race is learned and racism only exists because of the stories we tell ourselves about it.

[Udayana]

Yes, I agree completely.

[Robbie]

Well I guess it depends on what we mean by 'all the same'. I don't know what it's like to be blonde, or male, or blind. Every single one of us is different and living a unique experience. But we still have similar emotions, aspirations and needs. Race is learned and racism only exists because of the stories we tell ourselves about it.

Agree with this. We are all individuals. However each of us has more in common with some than others. If I completely ignored differences I would be ignoring something important. The Africa Centre for example, where people celebrate African culture (used to be in Covent Garden, since moved to the Oval area & I've not been there. Had meals in the Covent Garden one). That's jsut an example.

When it comes to basic human needs & rights, employment, housing, kids at school, we're all the same.

[Rhiannon]

It's not just about rights. It's about the common things - community, love, art, music, beauty... culturally we may like different things - and I agree that sampling other cultures is one of life's huge pleasures - but the drive to love, to want the best for our kids, to express ourselves through appearance, art and music, to share food, to grow things, to have animal companions, all are important things that show we aren't so different.

[Robbie]

No argument with that. Every human has more in common than differences but the differences are interesting to those of us who do' nt have prejudices..

(Edited because I left out a letter)

[Rhiannon]

I find these things interesting full stop. What I love though is that the 'differences' are in expression but where they come from is the same. I feel the same about looking st past cultures - somehow I find it oddly reassuring that Bronze Age women also liked to do things with their hair and their pots were decorated just because.

[Udayana]

I know what you mean. It's reassuring because it is a affirmation of your own existence and feelings. Thus we love history, archaeology, ancient places and artefacts, myths and stories.   

Racist attitudes can also be bolstered by similar empathy and identification with, ancestral or tribal behaviour, culture and views - even when our knowledge of those may be false.

[Enki]

I know what you mean. It's reassuring because it is a affirmation of your own existence and feelings. Thus we love history, archaeology, ancient places and artefacts, myths and stories.   

Racist attitudes can also be bolstered by similar empathy and identification with, ancestral or tribal behaviour, culture and views - even when our knowledge of those may be false.

I agree wholeheartedly with most of what has been said on this thread. I think you raise a very good point when you suggest that 'racist attitudes can also be bolstered by similar empathy and identification...'

There's a book called 'Against Empathy: The Case For Rational Compassion' by Yale Professor Paul Bloom, which we are discussing at our next Humanist meeting on Monday. You might get some inkling of his ideas from this video. it lasts less than 3 mins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM1gYZROu94

It follows neatly on from Steven Pinker's views on this subject, which he expounded in his book 'The Better Angels of Our Nature'.

I often find it interesting that when people refer to empathy they often are talking more about sympathy and compassion, but. although they are related, they are not the same thing at all.

[Rhiannon]

I don't know how accurate this is, but I understood from the likes of Penelope Leach that children learn empathy from their primary care givers when under the age of two, and that children not show it struggle to empathise in later life - it's one concern about large and impersonal child care establishments and one way many countries are extending parental leave. In many situations sympathy is all we can offer, but empathy is what stops us from hurting others. For me, looking at the past enables me not to feel tribal, but insignificant I suppose. Maybe some of it is that I don't identify as coming from anywhere in particular and have a deep mistrust of labels. Robinson talked of going to an African centre which I would live, but because if wang to go and see art and hear music and eat food, not because I want to 'learn about other cultures'. But how do we get by without labels?

[Robbie]

That's why I went to the Africa centre in Covent Garden plus the fact that I was invited there for a meal. Afteer that I went a few times but haven't since it moved.

Iv ery much like your post and thoroughly agree with it.

(Enki thank you for the book recommendation, it will be on my list.)

[Rhiannon]

Glad you made sense of it with all my typos. 

[Shaker]

Glad you made sense of it with all my typos. 

if wang to go

was my favourite. There's a business opportunity there, surely.

[Rhiannon]

was my favourite. There's a business opportunity there, surely.

I thought they recorded Dance Hall Days.

[Enki]

I don't know how accurate this is, but I understood from the likes of Penelope Leach that children learn empathy from their primary care givers when under the age of two, and that children not show it struggle to empathise in later life - it's one concern about large and impersonal child care establishments and one way many countries are extending parental leave. In many situations sympathy is all we can offer, but empathy is what stops us from hurting others. For me, looking at the past enables me not to feel tribal, but insignificant I suppose. Maybe some of it is that I don't identify as coming from anywhere in particular and have a deep mistrust of labels. Robinson talked of going to an African centre which I would live, but because if wang to go and see art and hear music and eat food, not because I want to 'learn about other cultures'. But how do we get by without labels?

I think you make some very good points, Rhi. And I think that Bloom is aware of this to some extent, when he suggests that empathy could possibly work against what most people would suggest are good things by empathy's tendency to relate to personal relationships, or to a person's close community, rather than to the larger good. His point is that empathy can get in the way of making considered moral decisions, because it actually means that we tend to relate to a limited group, which, to some extent, means we actually feel the pain or distress or happiness of that particular person/group. I think I would challenge him to some extent, in that I see it as an evolutionary development which, as you say, has the capacity to stop us hurting others, and that inherently seems a good thing to do.

Anyway our speaker will be discussing this book at length, and I will be listening with interest both to him and to the comments that our audience makes. I will have to try to keep a balanced view throughout, as I'm the Chairman for this particular talk and following discussion.

[Rhiannon]

I've been thinking about this, Enki, and where I think empathy can work against us is where we see our 'tribe' as victims. I think that encourages tribalism and demonising of 'others' more than anything else. I feel it myself sometimes when hearing about the 'oppression by 'the English', when my own people -my ancestors - were also cleared off their lands, in England, thanks to the Enclosures. Feel the empathy and pain too deeply and it can easily become hate in the present.

And while we squabble about race and nationalism and religion, the rich and powerful still exploit, divide and destroy.

Enjoy your talk. 

[Enki]

Cheers, Rhi.

I certainly think that some of your ideas(and misgivings) will be raised in our meeting.

[Rhiannon]