Musician's church bans music

[Rhiannon]

HTB have their grasping grubby little hands all over this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/23/uks-leading-musicians-fight-church-ban-on-secular-bookings-aled-jones-judith-weir

[ProfessorDavey]

HTB have their grasping grubby little hands all over this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/23/uks-leading-musicians-fight-church-ban-on-secular-bookings-aled-jones-judith-weir

This is terrible and frankly bonkers, given that churches need all the income they can get, and trust me they charge a fortune to be used as a venue for a concert.

I've been linked to by many of my musical friends to get me to sign the petition. And that includes plenty who are professional musicians, active Christians and some of the people in the UK actually keeping church music alive - actually composing new high quality sacred music - rather than the nursery rhyme-type lowest common denominator 'folk' music for worship.

[Rhiannon]

I find it intensely depressing. HTB can't just live and let live, they have to 'church plant' and fuck things up for others. They are poisonous - I had a close friend forced from his church by them.

[Rhiannon]

HTB/Alpha are so wealthy they can probably take the hit from cancelling the concerts.

[ProfessorDavey]

I find it intensely depressing. HTB can't just live and let live, they have to 'church plant' and fuck things up for others. They are poisonous - I had a close friend forced from his church by them.

I know very little about HTB, but this seems so totally counterproductive.

No idea how much this church charges for the venue to be used for a concert - but round here my choral society are charged between £500 for one of the local small churches to touching £4000 for the cathedral. So these types of event significantly swell the coffers.

But also these events mean than non church goers actually go into a church and spend time there (something they might never otherwise do), and that might, of course, be a trigger for that person to think about perhaps going along for a service and maybe becoming a regular active christian.

And then there is the traditional aspect to it - the sacred music cannon was written to be performed in the acoustic of a church. If churches refuse to allow them to be performed as a part of a non religion concert (i.e. without worship) then we will no longer be able to hear Handel's Messiah as intended, or the Bach Matthew Passion or the Faure requiem. Because they aren't going to be performed as part of worship any time soon anywhere near you.

[Rhiannon]

Tbh I don't even know where to start. This is the horrible, arrogant face of Christianity that I find very hard to deal with.

[ProfessorDavey]

Tbh I don't even know where to start. This is the horrible, arrogant face of Christianity that I find very hard to deal with.

I hadn't got around to signing the petition a few days ago when I had it linked to me via various composer friends on Facebook. I have now.The notion that these muppets want to prevent people listening to the sublime Faure requiem (for example) - a sacred piece of music - in their church because it might be being performed as a concert rather than as worship is frankly beyond me.

And you'll never hear it (or at least hear it in full) in a worship setting any more.

[Rhiannon]

It's ok, they are going to pray about it. 

[SteveH]

I heard about this on a Church music group on Facebook. Yet another reason to hate bastard charismatic bastard Christian bastards, as if there weren't enough already.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

HTB have their grasping grubby little hands all over this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/23/uks-leading-musicians-fight-church-ban-on-secular-bookings-aled-jones-judith-weir

I seem to recall Dawkins similarly calling for a ban on a Templeton foundation gig in a " place of science" thus once more belying the plea that New Atheism Does not equate itself with science.

[ProfessorDavey]

I seem to recall Dawkins similarly calling for a ban on a Templeton foundation gig in a " place of science" thus once more belying the plea that New Atheism Does not equate itself with science.

Link please.

And besides if this were to be the case it is hardly comparable.

These guys are actually banning, not just calling for a ban. Secondly they are banning the performance of the most sublime, famous and importance sacred music when it isn't being performed during religious worship (which it never is). And this church has been known for decades as The National Musicians' Church - so this is what it is know for, what its heritage is.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Link please.

And besides if this were to be the case it is hardly comparable.

These guys are actually banning, not just calling for a ban. Secondly they are banning the performance of the most sublime, famous and importance sacred music when it isn't being performed during religious worship (which it never is). And this church has been known for decades as The National Musicians' Church - so this is what it is know for, what its heritage is.

It's worse since a church is a sacred space. Dawkins tried to imbue a place with ''sacredness'' for the beliefs of NEW atheism (note not plain atheism.
I would rightly be criticised for suggesting that Songs of Praise should come from BHA towers or the HQ of the NSS.

[Rhiannon]

It's worse since a church is a sacred space. Dawkins tried to imbue a place with ''sacredness'' for the beliefs of NEW atheism (note not plain atheism.
I would rightly be criticised for suggesting that Songs of Praise should come from BHA towers or the HQ of the NSS.

So do you agree with the tactic from HTB of 'church planting' by moving in their own congregation, and then their own priest, and the HTB style of worship (a mix of strong evangelicalism and speaking in tongues in the manner of the Toronto Blessing)?

[Shaker]

It's worse since a church is a sacred space. Dawkins tried to imbue a place with ''sacredness'' for the beliefs of NEW atheism (note not plain atheism.

I notice you ignored the Prof's request for a link.

What's "plain atheism? Atheism with no added sugar? Low fat atheism? What is it?

[Anchorman]

This is terrible and frankly bonkers, given that churches need all the income they can get, and trust me they charge a fortune to be used as a venue for a concert.

I've been linked to by many of my musical friends to get me to sign the petition. And that includes plenty who are professional musicians, active Christians and some of the people in the UK actually keeping church music alive - actually composing new high quality sacred music - rather than the nursery rhyme-type lowest common denominator 'folk' music for worship.

Whoa!
What's wrong with 'folk music for worship'?
I resent that!
Some of the most profound hymns of today were written to folk tunes - just as the original metrical Psalms were.
Sometimes, the organ is no aid to worship, nor, for that matter, are high falluting strings and brass which are sometimes incomprehensible.
There are contexts for such things - I'd suggest that Sunday worship is not one of them.
It's a Presbyterian thing.

[Anchorman]

I know very little about HTB, but this seems so totally counterproductive.

No idea how much this church charges for the venue to be used for a concert - but round here my choral society are charged between £500 for one of the local small churches to touching £4000 for the cathedral. So these types of event significantly swell the coffers.

But also these events mean than non church goers actually go into a church and spend time there (something they might never otherwise do), and that might, of course, be a trigger for that person to think about perhaps going along for a service and maybe becoming a regular active christian.

And then there is the traditional aspect to it - the sacred music cannon was written to be performed in the acoustic of a church. If churches refuse to allow them to be performed as a part of a non religion concert (i.e. without worship) then we will no longer be able to hear Handel's Messiah as intended, or the Bach Matthew Passion or the Faure requiem. Because they aren't going to be performed as part of worship any time soon anywhere near you.

Handel's Messiah was intended to be performed in a theatrical setting - as it was in Dublin on its' first outing.
Many Church traditions don't 'do' classical music,and find that there is no demand for it.
There are plenty of auditoria available for such performances - last year I heard Bach performed in a former bingo hall - the acoustics were fantastic.

[Aruntraveller]

Well all I can say is that if I were ever tempted to go to church to attend a service the thought of church folk music would be the nail in the coffin that stops me.

You'll be asking me to get happy clappy next.

Ugh!

[Anchorman]

Well all I can say is that if I were ever tempted to go to church to attend a service the thought of church folk music would be the nail in the coffin that stops me.

You'll be asking me to get happy clappy next.

Ugh!

Have you never heard the stuff John Bell and Graham Maule write, TV?
The words are profound, thought provoking, stirring and sometimes uncomfortable.
In other words, hymns that take you out of your comfort zone.
Hyms such as "Touching Place", or "Will you come and follow Me" would make many tories run in horror!

[Aruntraveller]

Have you never heard the stuff John Bell and Graham Maule write, TV?
The words are profound, thought provoking, stirring and sometimes uncomfortable.
In other words, hymns that take you out of your comfort zone.
Hyms such as "Touching Place", or "Will you come and follow Me" would make many tories run in horror!

I can't say I have - but if it makes Tories run in horror I am all for that. However on the occasions when I have witnessed folk music in Church and admittedly this (except for one occasion) is when I have inadvertently put SofP on TV, it has been the most dispiriting display of soporific, asinine music I have ever had the misfortune to witness.

[Anchorman]

You've never spent time with the Wild Goose Worship group, or with the Iona Community, then!

[Rhiannon]

You've never spent time with the Wild Goose Worship group, or with the Iona Community, then!

They are the exception though.

[Anchorman]

I heard about this on a Church music group on Facebook. Yet another reason to hate bastard charismatic bastard Christian bastards, as if there weren't enough already.

Sorry you hate me.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So do you agree with the tactic from HTB of 'church planting' by moving in their own congregation, and then their own priest, and the HTB style of worship (a mix of strong evangelicalism and speaking in tongues in the manner of the Toronto Blessing)?

Have they done that on the premises of the BHA and NSS? If not if there is a space why not promote your religion from it....after all atheism crops up on the sides of buses.

[Anchorman]

They are the exception though.

Not really.
A fwew years back, the CofS decided to create a new hymnbook.
The result was, and is, CH4, an amalgum of traditional hymns, metrical psalms, paraphrases, plus some modern stuff by Kendrick, Townend, Carter, etc, as well as Iona community hymns and world music.
The whole clamjamfrey is quite a good selection.

(Clamjamfrey = kit and kaboodle, obviously....)

[Rhiannon]

Have they done that on the premises of the BHA and NSS? If not if there is a space why not promote your religion from it....after all atheism crops up on the sides of buses.

Stop evading. So it's ok in your eyes for HTB to supplant one lot of worshippers and a tradition going on for decades, uninvited?