Musician's church bans music

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Stop evading. So it's ok in your eyes for HTB to supplant one lot of worshippers and a tradition going on for decades, uninvited?

I'm not getting it. What is the connection with HTB are the parishes linked in the formal Cof E set up or is the Vicar just formerly of HTB?

In any case I believe the matter to be how evangelism is best served is the most important consideration not that of people who want to enjoy nice secular music in a quaint architectural environment which after all is merely the same as sort of thing as secular boozers enjoying a cheap pint in an ex Baptist church now Witherspoons.

[Rhiannon]

I'll hazard a guess that making the church look like aggressive, smug, intolerant dicks isn't the best way to evangelise.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

............................aggressive, smug, intolerant dicks isn't the best way to evangelise.

As the New Atheists demonstrate.
One bit did trouble me though was reference to bringing in a ''core group'' of worshippers. That smacked of being superior corporate shit I grant you. I find no ''bringing in'' of ''core worshippers'' from one church into another in the New Testament .

[Rhiannon]

As the New Atheists demonstrate.
One bit did trouble me though was reference to bringing in a ''core group'' of worshippers. That smacked of being superior corporate shit I grant you. I find no ''bringing in'' of ''core worshippers'' from one church into another in the New Testament .

Classic HTB, sadly.

[Shaker]

Still no word on the link Prof. Davey asked for, Vlad?

[DaveM]

Hmmm.  Not really in a position to comment on the specifics of this particular incident as I am not in possession of sufficient details to draw firm conclusions.  But set against the broader canvas of the state of the Church in the UK, it is yet another straw in the wind indicating that Samson's hair is beginning to grow again, and this is starting to cause some discomfort amongst the Philistines. 

[SteveH]

Sorry you hate me.

I don't hate you, or any individual charismatic Christian, personally; I hate the charismatic movement for its right-wing attitudes, its dim-witted, happy-clappy style of worship, its love of repetitive, illiterate, glutinously sentimental and often theologically dubious "worship songs" at the expense of proper hymns, and its narrow-mindedness, assuming that their way of worship is the best, if not the only, way, and their insensitivity to others. I was a charismatic myself from the late 70s to the early 90s, to my undying shame, until I came to my senses.

[Anchorman]

Hmmm.  Not really in a position to comment on the specifics of this particular incident as I am not in possession of sufficient details to draw firm conclusions.  But set against the broader canvas of the state of the Church in the UK, it is yet another straw in the wind indicating that Samson's hair is beginning to grow again, and this is starting to cause some discomfort amongst the Philistines. 

I think it's a CofE thing, Dave.
That and some people's attachment to nice buildings and traditional forms of worship which don't seem to attract many new worshippers.
Personally, one of the (many) problems with 'mainstream' churches in these isles is the baggage of 'historic' and 'beautiful' buildings which cost a bomb to maintain.
As John Bell (yes, Iona again) said;
"You can be in the presence of God at the local landfill in as meaningful a way as in St Giles' Cathedral".
He's not wrong!

(And this comes from someone who took part in a great open-air service in a rather mucky field last Sunday afternoon. It might not have been a landfill, but the presence of the late bovine occupants of the said field were rather evident....)

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Still no word on the link Prof. Davey asked for, Vlad?

I have it here Shaker or shall let the foetid odour of antitheist suggestion that absence of evidence of the link is evidence of absence??

Hmm OK, here's the link, i'm sure there are many more.

http://freethinker.co.uk/2010/03/23/what-on-earth-has-got-into-the-us-national-academy-of-sciences/

May I express surprise at your ignorance of this?......amnesia?

[SteveH]

I think it's a CofE thing, Dave.
That and some people's attachment to nice buildings and traditional forms of worship which don't seem to attract many new worshippers.
Personally, one of the (many) problems with 'mainstream' churches in these isles is the baggage of 'historic' and 'beautiful' buildings which cost a bomb to maintain.
As John Bell (yes, Iona again) said;
"You can be in the presence of God at the local landfill in as meaningful a way as in St Giles' Cathedral".
He's not wrong!

(And this comes from someone who took part in a great open-air service in a rather mucky field last Sunday afternoon. It might not have been a landfill, but the presence of the late bovine occupants of the said field were rather evident....)

I'd rather Christianity died in the UK, if the only way of saving it was to go happy-clappy.

[Shaker]

I have it here Shaker or shall let the foetid odour of antitheist suggestion that absence of evidence of the link is evidence of absence??

Hmm OK, here's the link, i'm sure there are many more.

http://freethinker.co.uk/2010/03/23/what-on-earth-has-got-into-the-us-national-academy-of-sciences/

May I express surprise at your ignorance of this?......amnesia?

You can't forget something you never heard of in the first place. What of it?

[DaveM]

Best advice I can give you then is 'don't hold your breath'.  The fact of the matter is that neither will happen to the exclusion of the other,

[Anchorman]

I don't hate you, or any individual charismatic Christian, personally; I hate the charismatic movement for its right-wing attitudes, its dim-witted, happy-clappy style of worship, its love of repetitive, illiterate, glutinously sentimental and often theologically dubious "worship songs" at the expense of proper hymns, and its narrow-mindedness, assuming that their way of worship is the best, if not the only, way, and their insensitivity to others. I was a charismatic myself from the late 70s to the early 90s, to my undying shame, until I came to my senses.

The charismatic movement goes way beyond Pentecostalism, and 'happy clappy' music - though some of this written by modern worship leaders can be every bit as profound as the hymnody of Watts, Wesley or the rest)
I became a charismatic through the friendship of a Church of Scotland minister - and anyone who knows the Kirk will no how 'un-Pentecostal-like' the Kirk can be.
There are a few of us in the CofS, well able to control ourselves in public worship.....have ypou ever tried getting worked up singing "The auld hundreth"?
I'm sorry your view of all charismatics has been soured by your personal experience; however I find the discipline - yes, discipline; there's a presbyterian term for you - both satisfying and non-intrusive in worship, and deeply moving in personal devotions.

[Anchorman]

I'd rather Christianity died in the UK, if the only way of saving it was to go happy-clappy.

Whatever the Kirk is, happy clappy it most certainly is not!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You can't forget something you never heard of in the first place. What of it?

Yes, but why did you guys ask me for a link anyway?

[Shaker]

Yes, but why did you guys ask me for a link anyway?

To see if you're capable of providing evidence that substantiates your assertions.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

To see if you're capable of providing evidence that substantiates your assertions.

The assertion?
Oh yes......... That Dawkins in wanting to ban the Templeton foundation from gigging at the American NAS was claiming that building for New Atheism and perpetuating the equation of new atheism and science.

[Shaker]

The assertion?
Oh yes......... That Dawkins in wanting to ban the Templeton foundation from gigging at the American NAS was claiming that building for New Atheism and perpetuating the equation of new atheism and science.

And yet your link never once mentioned the word ban. Curiouser and curiouser said Alice.

[Robbie]

Ridiculous banning, grrr. I don't know the church but have in past been to various things at St Martin's in the Fields which is also CofE, did lot of social work locally & was glad of the money from hiring out premises. My parish church does same, a 'famous person' will be performing there on Monday (never heard of them but who cares?). Nothing disrespectful from what I've seen or heard, quite the contrary.

Don't know much about HTB but from what I've read they seem more sinister by the minute. Spoilsports too.

I'd rather Christianity died in the UK, if the only way of saving it was to go happy-clappy.

  d'you mean that? Happy clappy is fine as long as the Happy Clappies don't insist theres  is the 'one true way' & we should all be the same.How boring would that be.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And yet your link never once mentioned the word ban. Curiouser and curiouser said Alice.

Secondary to Dawkins wishing to turn a space(The NAS) into one dedicated to New atheist sensibilities and a discipline(science) into a subset of New Atheism.

[ProfessorDavey]

And yet your link never once mentioned the word ban. Curiouser and curiouser said Alice.

And Dawkins has no jurisdiction over what goes on in the American National Academy of Sciences. All he was doing was expressing an opinion. That is a world away from actually banning the performance of music (including sacred music from the huge cannon of traditional sacred choral music) from a church that is known as the National Musicians' Church unless it is being played as part of worship.

Worth noting too that the CofE and its individual churches get massive tax breaks due to their charitable status, plus also huge grants to support upkeep of historic churches (of which this is one) - effectively tax payer funding - and will justify this on the basis of community engagement. How does banning the community of musicians (don't forget it is the National Musicians' Church) from using the church fit with that remit. Let's hope the Charity commission and other public bodies look at their funding and tax breaks.

[Dicky Underpants]

Whatever the Kirk is, happy clappy it most certainly is not!

We must be thankful for small mercies. I certainly prefer Scottish dour to the above.
But you mentioned Bach in a bingo hall - now that is progress.

[Rhiannon]

I'm not bothered by the thought of churches echoing to the strains of Graham Kendrick. The toxic Alpha/HTB mix of forced charismatic experience and ultra Evangelical dogma terrifies me.

Incidentally, churches are meant to serve their communities. This doesn't.

[ProfessorDavey]

Incidentally, churches are meant to serve their communities. This doesn't.

Particularly as they are the National Musicians' Church, so you'd expect them to consider musicians as key members of their community.

[Rhiannon]

Particularly as they are the National Musicians' Church, so you'd expect them to consider musicians as key members of their community.

There's something reminiscent of the Taliban here.