Musician's church bans music

[ProfessorDavey]

There's something reminiscent of the Taliban here.

I think this letter is excellent:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/aug/23/reverse-this-concert-ban-at-our-musicians-church

You should also note the list of signatories, which is effectively a whose, who of musicians who are keeping traditional sacred music alive in this country. And that includes the standard canon of pieces written over the past 400 years, but also new pieces being written now by the likes of John Rutter, Will Todd and James MacMillan (all of who have signed the letter). Frankly without these 50-odd people who have signed the letter traditional sacred choral music would be pretty well moribund in this country.

[jeremyp]

I have no dog in this fight, but it all seems a bit weird to me.

Firstly, why would you do this? Here is an opportunity to get people into your church so you can spread your message. Not only that, but they'll pay you for the privilege.

Not only that but bringing people in from another parish seems really odd, like a corporate takeover. What's wrong with the existing congregation?

[Anchorman]

I'm not bothered by the thought of churches echoing to the strains of Graham Kendrick. The toxic Alpha/HTB mix of forced charismatic experience and ultra Evangelical dogma terrifies me.

Incidentally, churches are meant to serve their communities. This doesn't.

Having lead several Alpha courses in my area, there's nothing to be terrified about.
Worship styles can be adapted to suit local circumstances.

[Rhiannon]

Having lead several Alpha courses in my area, there's nothing to be terrified about.
Worship styles can be adapted to suit local circumstances.

It's what Alpha stands for, how it works and what it teaches that scares me. Not its worship style.

I used to get the Church Times and Alpha News came quarterly, full of testimony as to its powers.Want to be cured of being gay? Try Alpha. Want to be cured of that nasty paganism ? Alpha will sort it.

One of the best people I've ever known was drummed out of his parish thanks to HTB. When the congregation of his church didnt start speaking in tongues to order the HTB facilitators went all Witchsmeller and said it was him blocking the Holy Spirit. He was forced to resign.

HTB and all it stands for disgust me.

[Anchorman]

Must be different up here. Yes, Alpha takes a firm stand on commitment to Christ - but there are, as far as I am aware, no 'enforcers' to drum anyone who doesn't conform to the stereotype. As I've stated, I've run several Alpha courses within the local CofS presbytery, and taken part in two Alpha plus terms as well. The charisma are, of course, discussed -sometimes at length. However, I have known of courses where the relevent section is not used, or simply relegated to a series of notes given out before coffee, leaving the option for those interested to initiate discussion or not.

[SteveH]

  d'you mean that? [That I'd rather Christianity died in the UK than go happy-clappy] Happy clappy is fine as long as the Happy Clappies don't insist theres  is the 'one true way' & we should all be the same.How boring would that be.

No, not really - somewhat of an exaggeration. However, I don't think happy-clappy is fine - it's hyper-emotional (and much of the emotion is fake and whipped-up), anti-intellectual, and thoroughly third-rate. It is also very harmful in holding out false promises of healing to vulnerable people, which is downright cruel in effect, if not in intention, because healing never happens, except through medical intervention or because the condition was self-limiting in the first place. Mind you, my experience of the movement is 25 years out if date, so it may have matured in some ways. It's still singing the same, unbelievably awful worship-songs, though.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's what Alpha stands for, how it works and what it teaches that scares me. Not its worship style.

I used to get the Church Times and Alpha News came quarterly, full of testimony as to its powers.Want to be cured of being gay? Try Alpha. Want to be cured of that nasty paganism ? Alpha will sort it.

I've never seen alpha advertised as that.

[Rhiannon]

I've never seen alpha advertised as that.

It wasn't an advert. It was testimony from people who had done the course.

[Rhiannon]

No, not really - somewhat of an exaggeration. However, I don't think happy-clappy is fine - it's hyper-emotional (and much of the emotion is fake and whipped-up), anti-intellectual, and thoroughly third-rate. It is also very harmful in holding out false promises of healing to vulnerable people, which is downright cruel in effect, if not in intention, because healing never happens, except through medical intervention or because the condition was self-limiting in the first place. Mind you, my experience of the movement is 25 years out if date, so it may have matured in some ways. It's still singing the same, unbelievably awful worship-songs, though.

Ah yes, promised healing that doesn't happen that then gets blamed on the sick person for not repenting of their sin.

[SteveH]

Ah yes, promised healing that doesn't happen that then gets blamed on the sick person for not repenting of their sin.

Well, to be fair, blaming the sick person for not being healed didn't happen in my charismatic church, which was anglican. I think charismatics in mainstream denominations behave better than those in independent fellowships, because their vicars or ministers are better educated, and because the denominations have proper oversight of individual churches. Some independent fellowships are appalling, though - some ill-educated, fanatical control-freak sets himself up (it's usually a him) as the "pastor" (and I automatically distrust any group whose head is called a pastor) and does untold damage.

[ProfessorDavey]

I've never seen alpha advertised as that.

Strangely I agree with everyone and perhaps also disagree with all.

So for context Rhiannon posted:

'I used to get the Church Times and Alpha News came quarterly, full of testimony as to its powers.Want to be cured of being gay? Try Alpha. Want to be cured of that nasty paganism ? Alpha will sort it.'

While Anchorman posted:

'Must be different up here. Yes, Alpha takes a firm stand on commitment to Christ'Now my big issue with Alpha is that it is disingenuous bordering on dishonest.

As a layperson Alpha is 'marketed' as come and find out about the 'meaning of life/explore the big questions' - no mention of christianity, evangelism - even less gay cures. In other words that it is a broad philosophy programme when in fact it is anything but. That to me is deeply disingenuous or dishonest.

If their posters said - 'hey ex-christians - feeling guilty - want a way back into your church' then all well and good and the vast majority of people would simply ignore. but the whole notion that it markets itself on being a broad exploration of 'life's big questions' while actually being an uber narrow evangelical christian initiative really irks m

That said I think we've gone beyond 'peak Alpha' - the market (i.e. ex-christians) is small and has been ruthlessly exploited, so I suspect we will be seeing less and less of Alpha over coming years as anyone actually interested has already done it.

[Robbie]

No, not really - somewhat of an exaggeration. However, I don't think happy-clappy is fine - it's hyper-emotional (and much of the emotion is fake and whipped-up), anti-intellectual, and thoroughly third-rate. It is also very harmful in holding out false promises of healing to vulnerable people, which is downright cruel in effect, if not in intention, because healing never happens, except through medical intervention or because the condition was self-limiting in the first place. Mind you, my experience of the movement is 25 years out if date, so it may have matured in some ways. It's still singing the same, unbelievably awful worship-songs, though.

I didn't know it was that serious, thought it was just a different worship style. It's not something with which I'm familiar but going on whatyou say,  I can only agree with you, it's harmful. Also seems rather elitist.

[SteveH]

Strangely I agree with everyone and perhaps also disagree with all.

So for context Rhiannon posted:

'I used to get the Church Times and Alpha News came quarterly, full of testimony as to its powers.Want to be cured of being gay? Try Alpha. Want to be cured of that nasty paganism ? Alpha will sort it.'

While Anchorman posted:

'Must be different up here. Yes, Alpha takes a firm stand on commitment to Christ'Now my big issue with Alpha is that it is disingenuous bordering on dishonest.

As a layperson Alpha is 'marketed' as come and find out about the 'meaning of life/explore the big questions' - no mention of christianity, evangelism - even less gay cures. In other words that it is a broad philosophy programme when in fact it is anything but. That to me is deeply disingenuous or dishonest.

If their posters said - 'hey ex-christians - feeling guilty - want a way back into your church' then all well and good and the vast majority of people would simply ignore. but the whole notion that it markets itself on being a broad exploration of 'life's big questions' while actually being an uber narrow evangelical christian initiative really irks m

That said I think we've gone beyond 'peak Alpha' - the market (i.e. ex-christians) is small and has been ruthlessly exploited, so I suspect we will be seeing less and less of Alpha over coming years as anyone actually interested has already done it.

Where do you get the idea from that Alpha is specifically for ex-Christians? It's for enquirers generally.

[Anchorman]

No Alpha course on which I've attended was tailored for any group. Most who attended heard through word of mouth, or by invitation; few bothered with any advertising. The only posters we used were those we made ourselves and placed in various churches, and a few public venues. Since they showed a Cross pretty prominanytly, there would be little doubt of the content of the course.

[Robbie]

Where do you get the idea from that Alpha is specifically for ex-Christians? It's for enquirers generally.

I had a look at the Alpha website and a few sites where it's talked about, before going to sleep and this morning before getting up (yeah I really know how to live!).   
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=alpha+course&rlz=1C5CHFA_enGB717GB727&oq=alpha+course&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j0l5.3832j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

From my reading ti seems that Alpha is for anyone who is interested so that means completely new to Christianity - but lot of people who would consider themselves Christian & feel their knowledge over the years has become dimmed, do it as refresher course. So basically it's for anyone  & can be adapted to suit specific groups.

Would be interesting for someone on here to attend a course and tell us about it first hand - if they want to of course. Must say I'm curious but would rather go to one, if at all, not in my area where I'm not known. I presume you don't have to attend every session. Food might be nice :-).
Alnchorman could tell us more as he's done courses.

We've moved somewhat from thread title but Holy Trinity Brompton figures prominently in the reasons for banning.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Strangely I agree with everyone and perhaps also disagree with all.

So for context Rhiannon posted:

'I used to get the Church Times and Alpha News came quarterly, full of testimony as to its powers.Want to be cured of being gay? Try Alpha. Want to be cured of that nasty paganism ? Alpha will sort it.'

While Anchorman posted:

'Must be different up here. Yes, Alpha takes a firm stand on commitment to Christ'Now my big issue with Alpha is that it is disingenuous bordering on dishonest.

As a layperson Alpha is 'marketed' as come and find out about the 'meaning of life/explore the big questions' - no mention of christianity, evangelism - even less gay cures. In other words that it is a broad philosophy programme when in fact it is anything but. That to me is deeply disingenuous or dishonest.

If their posters said - 'hey ex-christians - feeling guilty - want a way back into your church' then all well and good and the vast majority of people would simply ignore. but the whole notion that it markets itself on being a broad exploration of 'life's big questions' while actually being an uber narrow evangelical christian initiative really irks m

That said I think we've gone beyond 'peak Alpha' - the market (i.e. ex-christians) is small and has been ruthlessly exploited, so I suspect we will be seeing less and less of Alpha over coming years as anyone actually interested has already done it.

Can a broad philosophy programme get anywhere near any meaning in life.
I don't know whether there would be any recourse in complaining that something to set up as an exploration of meaning and answers didn't do the Biz because it had the temerity to offer some.

Perhaps there is a market for a Dogmatically agnostic alternative........a title?.........How about ''You never know!''

[ProfessorDavey]

Can a broad philosophy programme get anywhere near any meaning in life.

Nor more nor less than a narrow one focussing on just one religion.

My point is that Alpha is a course about christianity yet it is typically not marketed as such - indeed most marketing I've seen (mainly posters) has no mention of Christianity, Jesus, God or symbols that might infer this is what it is about.

Why is an evangelical Christian organisation so reluctant to tell everyone that their flagship course is about Christianity. Frankly I find it rather dishonest although I think Alpha is so well embedded and known now that few people will be fooled, but I suspect that wouldn't have been the case years ago with people pitching up to find the course was not what they were expecting at all.

[ProfessorDavey]

Where do you get the idea from that Alpha is specifically for ex-Christians? It's for enquirers generally.

Of course anyone can attend, but not everyone does attend.

There have been surveys on Alpha attendance and the vast, vast majority who attend are either current active church-goers (often termed 'churched') or people who had been active churchgoers at some point in the past but for some reason had drifted away but are open to return (termed open de-churched). That second group is really what I meant by 'hey ex-christians - feeling guilty - want a way back into your church'. That is exactly the group that the course attracts apart from current churchgoers.

This from discussion of one of the studies:

'Of those attending the course in his survey, 86% were either already regular churchgoers or were from the 'open de-churched' category; that is, they had been baptised, had generally grown up with some church involvement, had left at some point and were open to the possibility of returning. Significantly under-represented were the non-churched and closed de-churched.'

Broadly speaking about 10% of the population are 'churched' another 20% are 'open de-churched' with the remainder non-churched and closed de-churched. So in effect 86% of Alpha attendance come from 30% of the population, while the remaining 14% is from 70% of the population.

So while Alpha may claim to be open to everyone, the people who attend are overwhelmingly active church-goers or lapsed churchgoers who are thinking of returning.

[Enki]

I've attended two Alpha courses at two different churches, one with my wife and one alone. In both the Alpha courses we/I were the only non Christians present.

Both my wife and I found them quite appalling, with a heady mixture of parochialism, utter discomfort when we asked awkward questions and attempts at separating my wife and I in order to attempt to indoctrinate my wife, because. I assume, they thought that she was the weaker vessel(how wrong they were), and a huge emphasis on how we are all sinful beings who need the Christian God to lead fulfilling lives.

Anyone who would like to see an account of one skeptic who attended an Alpha course might like to follow this

https://alphacoursereview.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/week-1a-introduction/

 

[Nearly Sane]

I had a look at the Alpha website and a few sites where it's talked about, before going to sleep and this morning before getting up (yeah I really know how to live!).   
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=alpha+course&rlz=1C5CHFA_enGB717GB727&oq=alpha+course&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j0l5.3832j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

From my reading ti seems that Alpha is for anyone who is interested so that means completely new to Christianity - but lot of people who would consider themselves Christian & feel their knowledge over the years has become dimmed, do it as refresher course. So basically it's for anyone  & can be adapted to suit specific groups.

Would be interesting for someone on here to attend a course and tell us about it first hand - if they want to of course. Must say I'm curious but would rather go to one, if at all, not in my area where I'm not known. I presume you don't have to attend every session. Food might be nice :-).
Alnchorman could tell us more as he's done courses.

We've moved somewhat from thread title but Holy Trinity Brompton figures prominently in the reasons for banning.

IIRC Susan Doris went on an alpha course and wrote about it. Otherwise the best blog I know of it, and it is from an atheist perspective is Stephen Butterfield's - link below


https://alphacoursereview.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/week-1a-introduction/

[Nearly Sane]

I've attended two Alpha courses at two different churches, one with my wife and one alone. In both the Alpha courses we/I were the only non Christians present.

Both my wife and I found them quite appalling, with a heady mixture of parochialism, utter discomfort when we asked awkward questions and attempts at separating my wife and I in order to attempt to indoctrinate my wife, because. I assume, they thought that she was the weaker vessel(how wrong they were), and a huge emphasis on how we are all sinful beings who need the Christian God to lead fulfilling lives.

Anyone who would like to see an account of one skeptic who attended an Alpha course might like to follow this

https://alphacoursereview.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/week-1a-introduction/

Ah - I see we posted the same link at the same time! Why did you attend the second course?

[Enki]

Ah - I see we posted the same link at the same time! Why did you attend the second course?

Fair question. Because my wife wanted to know what it was all about, and being a person of some discerning(after all she married me), she wanted to find out for herself, so I went along with her.

[Robbie]

Thank you v much NS & Enki, I'll read the link you both posted. Can't find Susan's blog which I'd like to read, i'm open minded. Probably looking in the wrong place.

Well, to be fair, blaming the sick person for not being healed didn't happen in my charismatic church, which was anglican. I think charismatics in mainstream denominations behave better than those in independent fellowships, because their vicars or ministers are better educated, and because the denominations have proper oversight of individual churches. Some independent fellowships are appalling, though - some ill-educated, fanatical control-freak sets himself up (it's usually a him) as the "pastor" (and I automatically distrust any group whose head is called a pastor) and does untold damage.

Holy Trinity Brompton is Anglican & Mr Gumble is very well educated!
PS: Should be 'Gumbel'.

My Anglican church run Alpha sometimes but we don't hear much about it, maybe people come from outside and run it.

I found this church not far away - where I know no-one (tho' might bump into someone I know if I go there), seems to fit your description quite well steve :-). Does healing & deliverance.
http://www.bromleycommonbaptist.org.uk/alpha.htm
Just thinking about it really. I can spare one evening a week for a while especially as their course starts after my holiday.

[DaveM]

I do not have wide experience with Alpha, but have had some minor involvement in the running of a couple of courses.  In my view much of the vitriol directed at Alpha on this thread is largely a case of shooting the messenger.  The content of Alpha, with the possible exception of the section on the role of the Holy Spirit, is pretty much standard Christianity 101.  On all the courses that I have had some exposure to the section on the Holy Spirit has been adapted to reflect the theological position of the host church.

But, as with any presentation of the basic gospel message, it is not so much in the 'what' but rather in the 'how' that offence can be given.  Does one simply adopt an essentially 'low key' approach and rely on the Holy Spirit to convict where the message falls on good soil?  Or do you 'dangle the tootsies' of your audience over the fires of hell in order to scare the hell out of them? I know the approach we adopted here and would be pretty convinced that Anchorman would confirm that the courses he was involved with took essentially a similar approach.  I can only assume that those on this forum who have related such negative experiences on Alpha courses were unfortunate enough to have been at a course which took the latter approach.     

[Anchorman]

Wot Dave said. Indeed, in the notes for those leading Alpha (and indeed Alpha plus) courses, the course is shown to be flexible. That's the whole point of it - to meet the needs of those who wish to communicate the Gospel in an environment and in a way which is non-threatening, which engenders discussion in a friendly atmosphere, and encourages everyone - both those who lead Alpha groups and those who attend them - to explore the issues raised. The main core values of evangelical thought (with a small 'e') are, of course, the mainstay of the course - after all, that's the whole point of the thing in the first place. As for the controversial bits? I've never yet seen Alpha material which omits the Holy Spirit - specifically the charisma. However, the notes make it abundantly clear that this can be treated in whatever fashion accords with the theological position of the church. I know of some CofS churches which have glossed over the section; others which have jumped in at the deep end. Similarly, I know of Baptist and Congregationalist churches which have done much the same thing. For those who find the section awkward, I know of groups of churches hich set up hubs where that very specific section could be debated and dissected in a more intense seminar or discussion, allowing those who were taking the Alpha course but did not wish to take part to give the seminar a miss.