Another blow for LGBT to try and get something positive from?

[Owlswing]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4840520/Transgender-teen-s-suicide-school-banned-change.html

It is bad enough that this boy was treated in the way he was, leading to his suicide, but to continue to refer to him by his birth name

QUOTE - Head teacher Sharon Cromie, 51, said in a short statement: 'Louise was a wonderful person in every way and is missed by us all.' - UNQUOTE

is an insult to his memory.

I might expect this kind of thing in the US but Buckinghamshire? Does this woman have no realisation of the consequences of her actions?

[Rhiannon]

I suspect that as this was an all girls school the head couldn't be arsed with the dilemma of dealing with a boy on the school (and parents reacting to the changing room and toilets issue) so pretended it wasn't there.

To ignore his wishes after his death is ignorant and cruel but would also be an admission of being wrong, and inadequate people doing inadequate jobs can't do that.

[Robbie]

I don't suppose it was meant to be insulting to his memory. In any case, the head might be misquoted - could have said Louis and quoted as saying Louise, we weren't there and it's easy to add an 'e'.  What she said about the boy was nice which is more important.

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't suppose it was meant to be insulting to his memory. In any case, the head might be misquoted - could have said Louis and quoted as saying Louise, we weren't there and it's easy to add an 'e'.  What she said about the boy was nice which is more important.

He was called Leo - hard to see how that could become Louise by the addition of an 'e'.

[Robbie]

Yes he was called Leo, sorry I missed that, thought he was "Louis".
I do feel a bit sorry for the head teacher though, doubt it was meant as a slight.  Typical of the press to make a big deal out of it.

This is a terrible tragedy without people pointing a finger at a teacher.  She isn't to blame for the boy's suicide.  My sympathy is with his father.

[Owlswing]

Yes he was called Leo, sorry I missed that, thought he was "Louis".

I do feel a bit sorry for the head teacher though, doubt it was meant as a slight.  Typical of the press to make a big deal out of it.

This is a terrible tragedy without people pointing a finger at a teacher. She isn't to blame for the boy's suicide.  My sympathy is with his father.

Yes, I'm afraid that she was!

It was her decison the refuse to allow him to be called Leo - OK, he could not Deed Poll him name until he was sixteen, but in the School Register, by teachers and fellow pupils?

He was, just before his suicide, "angry about the school" because of this woman's decision - she WAS and IS responsible for the consequences of her actions and statements!

As to the press - better they make a big deal of it than allow the boy's death to be dismissed as "just another over-emotional poof trying to get some attention" as one woman on my bus described it!

[Rhiannon]

Yes he was called Leo, sorry I missed that, thought he was "Louis".
I do feel a bit sorry for the head teacher though, doubt it was meant as a slight.  Typical of the press to make a big deal out of it.

This is a terrible tragedy without people pointing a finger at a teacher.  She isn't to blame for the boy's suicide.  My sympathy is with his father.

Stop making up excuses for this pathetic excuse of a human being. She knew *exactly* what she was doing. Insults aside, she is covering her own mistake. She should have accommodated his transgender in school and was negligent on not doing so, presumably because it made her life easier. In not acknowledging Leo after death she is trying to give the impression that she was right to do what she did. I hope she gets sacked and never works again. I wouldn't leave her in charge of emptying the bins.

[wigginhall]

Yes, it's what Americans' call doubling down on her previous fuck-up, in denying the boy his trans status.   Then to issue condolences in his previous name is egregious, and really, a slap in the face to his father and friends.   

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Stop making up excuses for this pathetic excuse of a human being. She knew *exactly* what she was doing. Insults aside, she is covering her own mistake. She should have accommodated his transgender in school and was negligent on not doing so, presumably because it made her life easier. In not acknowledging Leo after death she is trying to give the impression that she was right to do what she did. I hope she gets sacked and never works again. I wouldn't leave her in charge of emptying the bins.

Is this a genuine post or were you just trying to give a clever example of how irrational human nature causes problems for people? By irrational human nature I mean people being quick to judge based on sensationalised media headlines and little actual information, opinionated, over-emotional, willing to sack people and negatively affect multiple lives because someone may or may not hold a different opinion from them.

The head teacher might well be useless at being a head teacher - only the people at the school can assess that. Or there is every possibility that she might have done a pretty decent job running a school and giving a lot of kids a decent education. If it's the latter, I would not want all the kids she has helped denied her useful input just because she called a transgender person Lousie, instead of Leo.

Leo's emotional problems are probably caused by multiple issues, including the recent death of his mother from cancer and up-coming exams. It is unreasonable for him to get so angry over the name on the school register that he decided to kill himself but not particularly surprising if in his teenage impetuousness, he decided to blame the school rather than admit anxiety over exams or any other issues bothering him. Many teenagers have a problem with thinking or communicating clearly.

A kid with LGBT emotional problems and a single father who has recently lost his wife to cancer, which from recent personal experience with a close relative, is a gruelling time for the family, is going to be a difficult situation. 

A statement released by the school disputed the Daily Mail claims, saying it "did not refuse a name change as suggested".

A spokesperson said: "Louise / Leo / Alex Etherington was a wonderful young person, in every respect and popular and well-liked by all.

"The death of a young person is always deeply upsetting and our thoughts at this time are with the family & friends.

"I cannot comment on any individual case. However, I can advise that our procedures support name changes'."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/transgender-teenager-kills-himself-suicide-school-ban-name-use-leo-etherington-a7923811.html

[SusanDoris]

Gabriella #8

Well said.

[Robbie]

Agree with you about Gabriella's post, Susan.

Gabriella, I also read the Independent article, also one from the Guardian because I didn't want to rely solely on the Mail.  The Guardian article said much the same as the Mail but the Independent had more information.

Leo had also called himself Alex for a while but ultimately rejected it as being too gender neutral.

Poor young lad seemed to have a whole heap of emotional problems.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes - newspaper articles can be misleading as it's up to the journalist and editor as to the spin they want to put on events for their own agenda. Out of hundreds of comments made by the father, they can choose to include just one comment and change the focus and emphasis of the whole report. The distortion is magnified if people have excessive, knee-jerk reactions to events based on misleading media spin.

I think it is unhelpful to the other children in the school, who are just as important as Leo, if the papers target individuals who may well be doing a good job for the well-being of the majority of the school. IMO if Leo felt angry that his needs were not being met by the school, this is an issue that Leo should have got help with from external counselling to gain some much-needed perspective.

[Sriram]

I think in general it is wrong to blame anyone else for a persons suicide. Unless the person has been specifically driven to suicide through cruelty or torture (physical or mental), I don't think anyone else can be blamed or held responsible.

No on expects anyone to commit suicide in the normal course of things.  Suicide requires a type of mental condition which no one can anticipate or foresee (unless the other person has specifically warned or threatened them that he/she will commit suicide).

Millions of people live under extremely  challenging circumstances and never even think of suicide, so when and why any person will actually commit suicide can never be anticipated.  Anything can be taken as an insult or a slight even though nothing was actually meant. It all depends on how that person perceives it.

People, especially some teens, sometimes commit suicide for the silliest reasons.....exam marks, love affairs, teasing by friends, even for not having a mobile phone!  Who can be held responsible?

[SweetPea]

Agree, Gabriella and Sriram.

It's also amounting to slander to accuse someone of someone else's suicide when the actual reasons for the suicide are only known to the person that has died.

May be not the best idea to post such accusations on a forum that is open for all the internet/world to see.

[Nearly Sane]

Agree, Gabriella and Sriram.

It's also amounting to slander to accuse someone of someone else's suicide when the actual reasons for the suicide are only known to the person that has died.

May be not the best idea to post such accusations on a forum that is open for all the internet/world to see.

Note given it's a written opinion it would be libel rather than slander. Further given it's an opinion about blame rather than a demonstrably incorrect matter of fact, it would fail any libel case.

[Rhiannon]

Hmm, let me see where I blamed the teacher for Leo's suicide.

Oh yeah, I didn't.

[SweetPea]

Hmm, let me see where I blamed the teacher for Leo's suicide.

Oh yeah, I didn't.

No, but see reply #5.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Rhiannon

Moderator: content removed

My point was that you describing someone as a pathetic excuse for a human being, negligent and calling for a head teacher, who might be meeting the needs of the vast majority of pupils, to be sacked simply because she calls someone by the name on the school records is unreasonably judgmental.

It's also dangerous to suspend judgment and fairness towards the emotionally stable person (the head), just because an emotionally unstable person (Leo) kills himself over a belief about gender, especially in this situation where the newspaper is alleging that Leo killed himself because he was angry for not getting his own way at school. 

It seems pretty reasonable for the school to only change school records when Leo legally changes his name. Especially as he felt comfortable enough to come out at school and asked the school to call him Alex before he opted for Leo. The school IMO should not be expected to keep changing pupils' names on official records every time they opt for a new name, until the pupil demonstrates that the change is a permanent change. Far better for pupils to get counselling to cope in a healthy way with disagreement and disappointment

Looking into the story further raises more issues that could have contributed to Leo's emotional pain: 

"The day before Leo’s death, Mr Etherington (Leo's father) said he received a message on Facebook from a stranger purporting that Leo was in a “relationship of sorts” with their 13-year-old daughter, and had exchanged “inappropriate” pictures and messages with her.

He asked Leo about it who denied any knowledge of the messages and pictures."

https://tinyurl.com/yaxxnwnn

I think not being allowed to change his name in school records and the head calling him Louise does not negate the head thinking he was a wonderful person in every way.



 

[Robbie]

Hmm, let me see where I blamed the teacher for Leo's suicide.

Oh yeah, I didn't.

You didn't actually say that Rhiannon ((Owlswing did in post 6), but came pretty close to it, I certainly got the impression from your posts that you blamed the Head
 :-

Quote from: Robinson on September 02, 2017, 09:11:23 PM
Yes he was called Leo, sorry I missed that, thought he was "Louis".
I do feel a bit sorry for the head teacher though, doubt it was meant as a slight.  Typical of the press to make a big deal out of it.

This is a terrible tragedy without people pointing a finger at a teacher.  She isn't to blame for the boy's suicide.  My sympathy is with his father.[unquote/)

Quote from Rhiannon post 6: Stop making up excuses for this pathetic excuse of a human being. She knew *exactly* what she was doing. Insults aside, she is covering her own mistake. She should have accommodated his transgender in school and was negligent on not doing so, presumably because it made her life easier. In not acknowledging Leo after death she is trying to give the impression that she was right to do what she did. I hope she gets sacked and never works again. I wouldn't leave her in charge of emptying the bins.
[unquote/)

Such vehemence when we knew so little from the Mail article.  Yet surely it was obvious there was a lot more to the story than we read, given the recent family history. Leo first of all coming as gay (as Alex), then decided he was trans, the GP saying an op could not be funded on the NHS.

The Independent articile quotes the school as saying they do support changes of name.

[Rhiannon]

I googled the case and read the Guardian, the Indie and the Currant Bun as well as the Mail before opting, in case any site reported something differently. They can say that their policies support whatever shit that they want; the fact is that they didn't when Leo was in the school as is evidenced by her pathetic and inhumane refusal to acknowledge his name after his death. So they might do now. Big deal. Her actions after his death are, as Wiggs says, a slap in her father's face. Why would it have cost her to use his name? Oh, maybe some humanity.

Tough shit if you think i came 'close' to blaming the head for his death; I didn't and I don't. I would say that the biggest tragedy in this young man's life was losing his mother; given that trans people are often at heightened risk of self harm and suicide (source: Guardian article) then the poor young chap was always up against it. In which case he should have expected extra help from his school.

The arrogance not even to use his name after his death. Not even to acknowledge it. Horrible. And for that total lack of empathy she shouldn't be allowed to teach.

[Robbie]

"I would say that the biggest tragedy in this young man's life was losing his mother; given that trans people are often at heightened risk of self harm and suicide (source: Guardian article) then the poor young chap was always up against it. In which case he should have expected extra help from his school."

Fair comments, I'd have thought some sort of counselling be available for such a traumatic bereavement four years ago, about the time he started at the school.

Also seems strange for someone identifying as a boy to still be going to an all girls school - I thought maybe there was no similar boys' or co-ed school in Leo's area but there are two boys' grammar schools. That would all take time though & 6th form college would have been the natural next option for Leo.

All a mess really, none of it handled well but no one person to blame.

(A girl, considered to be gifted, at a school not far from me committed suicide about two & half years ago.  There was a lot of talk about her not getting support she needed, she had previously spoken about having suicidal thoughts.  Had also been excluded for a relatively minor misdemeanour which was the straw that broke the camel's back.  The Head stepped down, someone else took over as 'interim' head & is still there, but there was more than one person who appeared to have failed the girl; No one seemed to have perceived her cries for help or took them seriously, including family. I suppose the head thought the buck stopped at her door but she hadn't been in the position very long.

Teenage suicides are not uncommon and leave people wondering why & what they might have done better. It is so, so very sad).

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Rhiannon

You are mistaking your un-evidenced opinions and beliefs on school policies at the time for facts. It's up to you to prove the school policies on names were not in place at the time Leo was at school.

Also, based on your logic about the head's statement being evidence of a lack of empathy, the head paying tribute to a pupil by calling them a wonderful person in every way is evidence that she cared about Leo and is an empathetic human being, even if Leo, in his angry, confused early teens, did not have the perspective to see it.

The father doesn't have to consider it a slap in the face if the head refers to Leo as Louise. People holding different beliefs about abstract concepts such as gender is not surprising and it seems pretty arrogant to consider disagreement a slap in the face, especially when the environment at school was such that Louise felt comfortable asking people to call her Alex and then Leo.

If the head is considered arrogant for having a different belief from the father and Leo about gender, it might well be that the head also brings a lot of positives to the school that will educate and prepare the majority of children for a future in a global, competitive economy, which is usually an important consideration for most parents, even if your focus appears to be on gender issues.

Hopefully there is a lot more to running a school and teaching children skills to become employable than beliefs about gender, and I think in a school it helps children to expose them fairly early to the very real possibility that other people will disagree with their beliefs. IME schools are now emphasising the need for children to learn resilience and learn to deal with disappointment and failure in a constructive way. It may be that due to welfare budget cuts, some people are not getting the extra support they need outside of school to cope in a healthy way with disagreement over their beliefs about abstract concepts such as gender.

[Owlswing]

Gabriella - Robinson - SweetPea


What contact have any of you had with teen and pre-teen transgenders?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Apart from a kid at my school in the late 70s who was a girl who dressed and looked and acted exactly like a boy, I don't know any pre-teen trans. There are a few teen trans at my kids' school but I don't know them personally.

So long as schools are fairly supportive of kids exploring their gender, by informally calling them by their chosen name in class, I see no reason for schools to change school records until the student is deemed to have the maturity to make decisions about legally changing their name - which currently seems to be set at age 16.

[Robbie]

I don't talk about a lot of personal stuff on this public forum but you'd be surprised at what I have encountered and still do.
No-one is saying that poor boy did not have emotional turmoil - or that he lacked proper help - but if you look at his background, there is more to the story than his decision about being trans.

He was only 15 when he died, another year and he might have reached a different decision (noted his GP said the NHS would not fund ops, yet the NHS does fund gender reassigment treatment so the GP may have had reservations).  We'll never know now!  Apparently he, or Louise as she was then, came out as a lesbian aged 11.  His mum dying must have had a devastating effect.  The child desperately needed attention!  I feel sad that the proper care and attention was not given, or not given in sufficiency, but it isn't an uncommon problem.

(Gabriella is sensible and balanced as well as compassionate in her posts, she talks sense.)