Another blow for LGBT to try and get something positive from?

[Rhiannon]

Rhiannon
...
If the head is considered arrogant for having a different belief from the father and Leo about gender, it might well be that the head also brings a lot of positives to the school that will educate and prepare the majority of children for a future in a global, competitive economy, which is usually an important consideration for most parents, even if your focus appears to be on gender issues.

Hopefully there is a lot more to running a school and teaching children skills to become employable than beliefs about gender, and I think in a school it helps children to expose them fairly early to the very real possibility that other people will disagree with their beliefs. IME schools are now emphasising the need for children to learn resilience and learn to deal with disappointment and failure in a constructive way. It may be that due to welfare budget cuts, some people are not getting the extra support they need outside of school to cope in a healthy way with disagreement over their beliefs about abstract concepts such as gender.

The issue for me here isn't actually gender at all. It is the total lack of compassion. Even if she felt unable to call Leo by name in school - and I disagree that there is a problem with going from a gender-neutral name to one that is identifiably male as identity is explored - how hard can it be to use the name that he identified by in her 'tribute' to him? It belittled his memory and must have hurt his father terribly. What would it have cost her to make that one small gesture of recognising Leo as he wanted to be at the time of his death, however mixed up she may have regarded him to be? One word. That's all.

[Rhiannon]

I don't talk about a lot of personal stuff on this public forum but you'd be surprised at what I have encountered and still do.
No-one is saying that poor boy did not have emotional turmoil - or that he lacked proper help - but if you look at his background, there is more to the story than his decision about being trans.

He was only 15 when he died, another year and he might have reached a different decision (noted his GP said the NHS would not fund ops, yet the NHS does fund gender reassigment treatment so the GP may have had reservations).  We'll never know now!  Apparently he, or Louise as she was then, came out as a lesbian aged 11.  His mum dying must have had a devastating effect.  The child desperately needed attention!  I feel sad that the proper care and attention was not given, or not given in sufficiency, but it isn't an uncommon problem.

(Gabriella is sensible and balanced as well as compassionate in her posts, she talks sense.)

This young person didn't need attention. Ffs. He needed proper qualified help that goes way beyond 'attention'. He clearly had a very loving dad and family and there is no suggestion of neglect.

Do you connect coming out as gay at a young age with his mother dying?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

"I would say that the biggest tragedy in this young man's life was losing his mother; given that trans people are often at heightened risk of self harm and suicide (source: Guardian article) then the poor young chap was always up against it. In which case he should have expected extra help from his school."

Fair comments, I'd have thought some sort of counselling be available for such a traumatic bereavement four years ago, about the time he started at the school.

Also seems strange for someone identifying as a boy to still be going to an all girls school - I thought maybe there was no similar boys' or co-ed school in Leo's area but there are two boys' grammar schools. That would all take time though & 6th form college would have been the natural next option for Leo.

All a mess really, none of it handled well but no one person to blame.

Teenage suicides are not uncommon and leave people wondering why & what they might have done better. It is so, so very sad).

Unfortunately schools have limited time and money resources for counselling services on top of education and clubs, so the services are often not very effective and parents I know have opted to get their kids counselling outside of school for various issues, despite the school having given them counselling in school. There is no other option than to get external help once children have expressed thoughts of suicide or seem to be struggling, because parents want to do everything they can to support their child rather than regret that they did not do enough.

Leo seems to have had come through an awful lot and despite his achievements and the support from the school, friends, family and the GP, he felt unable to continue.

From the Etherington/Aiston website:

"It is important for us to remember Leo, not as a troubled teenager, but rather look at the joy he brought in to this world. He could hold his own in political and topical discussions, his bright inquisitive mind often asking really telling questions. He loved reading, especially Harry Potter. Remember his sense of adventure in trying sports such as Canoeing, Ice skating, Zip Wires and climbing. He was passionate about Anime, and TV series such as Doctor Who, Sherlock, Agents of Shield, and films such as the Marvel movies and of course Harry Potter.

Whether we remember Louise or Alex or Leo I hope we can do so with a smile or even laugh at some of the things said or done. If all else fails remember the laugh, it was unique, but you couldn’t help smiling when you heard it."

http://www.11wwd.net/l.html

A lot of schools have a policy that trans children cannot change their names on school records until they are considered sufficiently mature, which currently seems to be age 16, when they can legally change their names without parental consent, so I don't see evidence that the school failed Leo.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The issue for me here isn't actually gender at all. It is the total lack of compassion. Even if she felt unable to call Leo by name in school - and I disagree that there is a problem with going from a gender-neutral name to one that is identifiably male as identity is explored - how hard can it be to use the name that he identified by in her 'tribute' to him? It belittled his memory and must have hurt his father terribly. What would it have cost her to make that one small gesture of recognising Leo as he wanted to be at the time of his death, however mixed up she may have regarded him to be? One word. That's all.

On a personal level, she might well have not had a problem referring to him as Leo, but as school head she is following policy. I think Leo had many issues and unfortunately sometimes despite all the support it is difficult for someone to continue, especially during the volatility of being a teenager.

I think the media are focusing on the head's use of the name "Louise" and on certain statements by the father at the inquest to paint a picture of the situation that may not be accurate.

[Owlswing]

Apart from a kid at my school in the late 70s who was a girl who dressed and looked and acted exactly like a boy, I don't know any pre-teen trans. There are a few teen trans at my kids' school but I don't know them personally.

So long as schools are fairly supportive of kids exploring their gender, by informally calling them by their chosen name in class, I see no reason for schools to change school records until the student is deemed to have the maturity to make decisions about legally changing their name - which currently seems to be set at age 16.

That's it! Ignore 'em and they'll be OK!

Wrong! That is part of the problem - trans people, particularly teens are an embarrassment to to the "normal" people around them and they feel isolated and alone!

I spent several years in Oz as a councellor/companion to teen and pre-teen transgenders - I'm considered too old to do it now - and the 'I am alone' and the 'no-one cares' are two of the problems that have to be dealt with.

On the other side of the coin trans persons, especially teen-trans are especially susceptible to the kind of exceptionally viscious bullying of which other teens are capable and some teens revel in inflicting on those who do not, for one reason or another, conform to their idea of normal!

The effects of bullying are cumulative and, in Leo's case, this teacher's attitude may well have been the last straw! Quite literally "the straw that broke the camel's back"!   

[Robbie]

 'I am alone' and the 'no-one cares' are statements made by lots of people who are depressed.  I'd go as far as saying - most people who are depressed when they are able to speak about it at last!  Young transgender people don't have the monopoly on the phrases, far from it.

However you could be right Owlswing, we'll never be sure unless this particular case is explored thoroughly & I doubt we'll hear much more of it now.

[Rhiannon]

I think it is hard to comprehend *just* how alone young trans people feel in a world where gender dominates daily life so much, and in a way that often feels dictatorial and even confrontational.

[Sriram]

I think we are probably overreacting. There are millions of young people living with all kinds of disabilities. No one commits suicide. Everyone learns to live life in their own terms without comparing and feeling sorry for themselves.

Sometimes too much of attention and help can also make people mentally weak and dependent.  They start feeling sorry for themselves. Left to themselves, most people get along very well in spite of whatever problems they may have. People have a natural resilience which can get suppressed through too much 'sympathy'. 

[Shaker]

I think we are probably overreacting. There are millions of young people living with all kinds of disabilities. No one commits suicide.

Spoken like someone missing a clue.

[Robbie]

I think it is hard to comprehend *just* how alone young trans people feel in a world where gender dominates daily life so much, and in a way that often feels dictatorial and even confrontational.

I don't doubt that Rhiannon.

Sririam, being transgender is not in itself a disability, it's just a difference to the 'usual'.   If we operate a society where there is room for everyone, they will just be accepted and no longer a matter for so much scrutiny.  In time there will be less anguish and, consequently, far less associated mental health problems.  Something to work towards in my view.

[Sriram]

I don't doubt that Rhiannon.

Sririam, being transgender is not in itself a disability, it's just a difference to the 'usual'.   If we operate a society where there is room for everyone, they will just be accepted and no longer a matter for so much scrutiny.  In time there will be less anguish and, consequently, far less associated mental health problems.  Something to work towards in my view.

Its a matter of semantics. Even if transgender is not a disability, the argument still holds.

[Rhiannon]

Its a matter of semantics. Even if transgender is not a disability, the argument still holds.

I'm astounded by just how compassionate and wise all that spiritual work that you've done on yourself has made you.

[Sriram]

I'm astounded by just how compassionate and wise all that spiritual work that you've done on yourself has made you.

Compassion also involves an understanding of the human condition. It does not mean only getting all mushy and gushing over with sympathy.   Everyone does not have to react exactly the way you do....you know.

[Aruntraveller]

Everyone does not have to react exactly the way you do....you know.

And thankfully they don't react the way you do either.

[Enki]

I would just like to say that I find Gabriella's comments on this subject to be extremely reasonable and well balanced.

[Robbie]

Definitely enki. I like the way she looks at topics and thinks carefully about every aspect.

[Rhiannon]

You can think about every aspect. Doesn't change the fact that the head's lack of compassion for Leo's wishes after his death (and his father's) is despicable. How anyone can conclude otherwise ('just doing her job') is beyond me. One word. She just had to unbend enough to use one word that was different.

[Rhiannon]

Compassion also involves an understanding of the human condition. It does not mean only getting all mushy and gushing over with sympathy.   Everyone does not have to react exactly the way you do....you know.

You mistake sympathy for empathy. There is nothing 'mushy' and 'gushy' about what happened here. It's not sentimental. This is the ugly death of a young man who deserved better. If I feel anything it is anger. Who we are, our identity, matters so much, even something as apparently arbitrary as our names. Leo was denied his name even after his death. But hey, only another screwed up young man just like any other, not worthy of your 'sympathy', right, Sriram?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

That's it! Ignore 'em and they'll be OK!

Wrong! That is part of the problem - trans people, particularly teens are an embarrassment to to the "normal" people around them and they feel isolated and alone!

I spent several years in Oz as a councellor/companion to teen and pre-teen transgenders - I'm considered too old to do it now - and the 'I am alone' and the 'no-one cares' are two of the problems that have to be dealt with.

On the other side of the coin trans persons, especially teen-trans are especially susceptible to the kind of exceptionally viscious bullying of which other teens are capable and some teens revel in inflicting on those who do not, for one reason or another, conform to their idea of normal!

The effects of bullying are cumulative and, in Leo's case, this teacher's attitude may well have been the last straw! Quite literally "the straw that broke the camel's back"!

I don't think there is any evidence that Leo was being bullied - his father said he had a supportive network of friends and family, which he felt comfortable coming out to.

According to my kids, at their all girls school now there are all kinds of support for LGBT issues, a gay head of year,  and everyone is so eager to show how cool they are with LGBT that kids are announcing themselves bi-sexual from Year 7 onwards. Even the straight kids are kissing their class mates as part of some game they play involving dares, which causes issues if the person they kissed happens to be the object of affection of another friend who has recently announced themselves bi or gay.

But the trans kids at the school seem to sometimes isolate themselves - they seem to find it difficult to fit in - not really surprising as they identify with a male gender in an all girls school and don't fit in with the look and the interests of the people around them. That is not the fault of the other kids - people gravitate towards social groups with shared interests, and certain people will be on the outside looking in and will isolate themselves. I experimented with being a bit of a Goth at school for a while, and on top of that I wasn't chasing boys so I was on the outside looking in at parties, but I chose that as my preferred option to copying my friends as I just wasn't interested in being boy-crazy or getting off with someone as some kind of badge of honour in order to be more socially accepted and scream and giggle about it afterwards like my friends. In fact when I went to my 10 year school reunion, married and pregnant, a couple of people told me they had always thought I was gay, especially after they heard on the grapevine that one of my best friends was gay. My coping mechanism during the teenage years was whiskey, and then I got to my mid- 20s and increased maturity and responsibilities meant I didn't need that coping mechanism anymore.

If trans people still feel isolated at school, and they are already getting support and not being bullied, they need to be pro-active and help themselves by finding counselling that works for them to change their perspective to find a way to fit into the world they are born into, and find support groups of like-minded people to help them feel less isolated. Especially during the volatile teenage years when having a sense of perspective is really hard.

Constantly castigating non-trans people for issues in the heads of trans people is a waste of time - someone can't fix your head for you and a lot of this is down to perspective and a neediness for external validation and feeling like a victim. If you don't fix yourself - there is clearly a real danger that you will kill yourself - which should give you considerable motivation to help yourself.

Lots of people think I'm weird - I don't feel like I fit in and I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way - but it doesn't stop me being proactive and finding lots of ways to be happy without expecting everyone else to do all the work to make me feel comfortable. It's hard when you're a teenager with few responsibilities to give you a sense of purpose, achievement and perspective that stops you obsessing about yourself but that's probably why you need counselling as a teenager to help you stop obsessing about what the world supposedly owes you.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You can think about every aspect. Doesn't change the fact that the head's lack of compassion for Leo's wishes after his death (and his father's) is despicable. How anyone can conclude otherwise ('just doing her job') is beyond me. One word. She just had to unbend enough to use one word that was different.

No it isn't despicable. I think your need to paint some caricature of the head is misguided and makes your words about compassion sound hollow. It's difficult to take lessons on compassion from someone who in the same post wrote some pretty vindictive words about another human being.

More to the point, Leo's dad referred to Leo as Louise on his family website - in the page I linked to and quoted. It may well be that school policy will change in the future and technology will allow kids to easily change their names every term without it causing any problems for anyone but I think you are just going along with the media agenda of creating a villain and conflict out of this story in order to sensationalise it, when the whole issue is much more nuanced.     

[Owlswing]

I don't think there is any evidence that Leo was being bullied - his father said he had a supportive network of friends and family, which he felt comfortable coming out to.

According to my kids, at their all girls school now there are all kinds of support for LGBT issues, a gay head of year,  and everyone is so eager to show how cool they are with LGBT that kids are announcing themselves bi-sexual from Year 7 onwards. Even the straight kids are kissing their class mates as part of some game they play involving dares, which causes issues if the person they kissed happens to be the object of affection of another friend who has recently announced themselves bi or gay.

But the trans kids at the school seem to sometimes isolate themselves - they seem to find it difficult to fit in - not really surprising as they identify with a male gender in an all girls school and don't fit in with the look and the interests of the people around them. That is not the fault of the other kids - people gravitate towards social groups with shared interests, and certain people will be on the outside looking in and will isolate themselves. I experimented with being a bit of a Goth at school for a while, and on top of that I wasn't chasing boys so I was on the outside looking in at parties, but I chose that as my preferred option to copying my friends as I just wasn't interested in being boy-crazy or getting off with someone as some kind of badge of honour in order to be more socially accepted and scream and giggle about it afterwards like my friends. In fact when I went to my 10 year school reunion, married and pregnant, a couple of people told me they had always thought I was gay, especially after they heard on the grapevine that one of my best friends was gay. My coping mechanism during the teenage years was whiskey, and then I got to my mid- 20s and increased maturity and responsibilities meant I didn't need that coping mechanism anymore.

If trans people still feel isolated at school, and they are already getting support and not being bullied, they need to be pro-active and help themselves by finding counselling that works for them to change their perspective to find a way to fit into the world they are born into, and find support groups of like-minded people to help them feel less isolated. Especially during the volatile teenage years when having a sense of perspective is really hard.

Constantly castigating non-trans people for issues in the heads of trans people is a waste of time - someone can't fix your head for you and a lot of this is down to perspective and a neediness for external validation and feeling like a victim. If you don't fix yourself - there is clearly a real danger that you will kill yourself - which should give you considerable motivation to help yourself.

Lots of people think I'm weird - I don't feel like I fit in and I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way - but it doesn't stop me being proactive and finding lots of ways to be happy without expecting everyone else to do all the work to make me feel comfortable. It's hard when you're a teenager with few responsibilities to give you a sense of purpose, achievement and perspective that stops you obsessing about yourself but that's probably why you need counselling as a teenager to help you stop obsessing about what the world supposedly owes you.

Simple answer?

You are NOT LGBT and have not the first idea of what is and what is not bullying to a person who IS LGBT!

I HAVE worked with LGBT people and I have friends who are both MTF and FTM and thus have at least some insight into how they feel about the outside world, most of whom, like you, have not the foggiest idea what feels like bullying to an LGBT person!

I am reluctantly, leaving this thread, as it is clear that most posters haven't a clue what being LGBT feels like. This thread has shown that, although things have improved for the LGBT community, there is still a damn long way to go!

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Simple answer?

You are NOT LGBT and have not the first idea of what is and what is not bullying to a person who IS LGBT!

I HAVE worked with LGBT people and I have friends who are both MTF and FTM and thus have at least some insight into how they feel about the outside world, most of whom, like you, have not the foggiest idea what feels like bullying to an LGBT person!

I am reluctantly, leaving this thread, as it is clear that most posters haven't a clue what being LGBT feels like. This thread has shown that, although things have improved for the LGBT community, there is still a damn long way to go!

There is considerable Equality legislation, education and support and the assistant coroner referred to this at Leo's inquest when she told the family: "You provided her with all the help and support she could have hoped for. I hope you can draw some comfort from that."

Leo's friends called him Leo or Alex. At school our friends would call us whatever name we wanted to be called as part of our sense of identity, and the teachers would call us by the name on the register - it's not some new idea invented to torment trans people.

According to you, as I am not LGBT I don't have the first idea what bullying is to someone who is LGBT. So there isn't a long way to go - there is actually nowhere to go as I am never going to be LGBT and according to you will never have the foggiest idea what feels like bullying to an LGBT person. "Bullying" seems to have a very loose meaning these days and could be defined as someone feeling they are being blocked from getting their own way.

Based on your logic, people who are not LGBT may well ask what they get out of being the whipping boy for all the issues LGBT people have because it is easier for some LGBT supporters to point the finger externally than do the harder job of helping LGBT people to fix what is in their own heads - their feelings of isolation. LGBT are a minority - there are lots of minority groups within society and most people at some point have probably felt like they don't fit in. If they actually want to survive these feelings of isolation rather than kill themselves while the world carries on turning, I suggest trans people and their families figure out a better coping mechanism for feeling different and being ok with that.

[Owlswing]

There is considerable Equality legislation, education and support and the assistant coroner referred to this at Leo's inquest when she told the family: "You provided her with all the help and support she could have hoped for. I hope you can draw some comfort from that."

Leo's friends called him Leo or Alex. At school our friends would call us whatever name we wanted to be called as part of our sense of identity, and the teachers would call us by the name on the register - it's not some new idea invented to torment trans people.

According to you, as I am not LGBT I don't have the first idea what bullying is to someone who is LGBT. So there isn't a long way to go - there is actually nowhere to go as I am never going to be LGBT and according to you will never have the foggiest idea what feels like bullying to an LGBT person. "Bullying" seems to have a very loose meaning these days and could be defined as someone feeling they are being blocked from getting their own way.

Based on your logic, people who are not LGBT may well ask what they get out of being the whipping boy for all the issues LGBT people have because it is easier for some LGBT supporters to point the finger externally than do the harder job of helping LGBT people to fix what is in their own heads - their feelings of isolation. LGBT are a minority - there are lots of minority groups within society and most people at some point have probably felt like they don't fit in. If they actually want to survive these feelings of isolation rather than kill themselves while the world carries on turning, I suggest trans people and their families figure out a better coping mechanism for feeling different and being ok with that.

There iust no point in me talking to you as you have your point of view and are reluctant to even bother trying to find out from any LGBT people what it is like to be one of them.

Without that your views are biased and uninformed.

A friend of mine is FTM, was accepted for treatment four years ago, has all his paperwork properly signed, sealed and up-to-date yet his bank and the passport office are still refusing to change his name and/or sex!

How in the name of all the you hold Holy do you know anything about what that is like?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

There iust no point in me talking to you as you have your point of view and are reluctant to even bother trying to find out from any LGBT people what it is like to be one of them.

Without that your views are biased and uninformed.

A friend of mine is FTM, was accepted for treatment four years ago, has all his paperwork properly signed, sealed and up-to-date yet his bank and the passport office are still refusing to change his name and/or sex!

How in the name of all the you hold Holy do you know anything about what that is like?

It is unlikely that your friend is being bullied by the Passport Office - it is just administrative people having different views on acceptable documentation because that's just the way human interpretation works. I come across this a lot with the Inland Revenue and also helplines - it is the luck of the draw and just depends on who you get - and it helps to ask them to quote and reference the rule in their official guidance that  is preventing them from giving you what you want. If you call the Passport Office again 5 minutes later you might get someone else on the other end who is helpful and/or  agrees with you or at least tells you how to fix the issue.

You could go to the Daily Mail to create a sensationalised non-story or you could try showing the below thread on changing name by deed poll and the passport office to your friend and tell them to persevere like the rest of us with the powers that be:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5061050

LGBT are not more special than anyone else - they are biased and uninformed about what it is like to be me, but i don't intend to hold that against them.

[Aruntraveller]

LGBT are not more special than anyone else - they are biased and uninformed about what it is like to be me, but i don't intend to hold that against them.

Whilst that may, in part be true, the truth of the matter is LGBT people do know what it is like to be heterosexual. After all society certainly in my young days went out of its way to make sure we were as straight as possible. It is a testament to my own fabulousness that society failed miserably.

I do feel that a certain competitiveness has crept into this debate which I feel is wholly unwelcome in what is a sensitive and difficult area. The unfortunate child clearly had a lot of very emotional issues to deal with - not the least of which was losing a parent. It is very difficult to get your head back into the mind of a teenager after all these years passed - but what I do remember was an emotional volatility linked with an absolute conviction that I was right about everything. This, fortunately in my case, only led to some serious embarrassments during the quagmire that is adolescence. That in others it inspires suicidal thoughts, and sadly, as in this case, actions is not to me surprising. What is more worrying is our lack of ability to do anything much about it.

I don't think the headteacher was particularly disrespectful - perhaps lacking in clarity of thought, but just maybe she was upset at the death of a child partly under her care. It's easy in life to jump to conclusions but much less easy to row back from them, as has been evidenced by this discussion.