Another blow for LGBT to try and get something positive from?

[Rhiannon]

Whilst that may, in part be true, the truth of the matter is LGBT people do know what it is like to be heterosexual. After all society certainly in my young days went out of its way to make sure we were as straight as possible. It is a testament to my own fabulousness that society failed miserably.

I do feel that a certain competitiveness has crept into this debate which I feel is wholly unwelcome in what is a sensitive and difficult area. The unfortunate child clearly had a lot of very emotional issues to deal with - not the least of which was losing a parent. It is very difficult to get your head back into the mind of a teenager after all these years passed - but what I do remember was an emotional volatility linked with an absolute conviction that I was right about everything. This, fortunately in my case, only led to some serious embarrassments during the quagmire that is adolescence. That in others it inspires suicidal thoughts, and sadly, as in this case, actions is not to me surprising. What is more worrying is our lack of ability to do anything much about it.

I don't think the headteacher was particularly disrespectful - perhaps lacking in clarity of thought, but just maybe she was upset at the death of a child partly under her care. It's easy in life to jump to conclusions but much less easy to row back from them, as has been evidenced by this discussion.

If you think I am 'competitive' in this debate then you are wrong - in fact I rarely see discussion as competition. I am not as angry as I was when I first posted my responses, although I still think that the head has been wholly unkind to Leo's memory and to his family. I'm trying to think why it was that I got so angry in the first place. Some of it undoubtedly is that I have teens myself, some is that I know how distressing uncaring and unbending teachers can be, so that's my stuff. But I still come back to this denial of Leo's name. Names are so important and to me it is as though she washy fully acknowledging who he was. That's unkind and disrespectful to his family. End of.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Could somebody help out on this puzzle. Why is gender reassignment in principle correct but sexuality reassignment in principle wrong.
Doesn't gender reassignment involve sexuality reassignment?
No offence since I have no personal experience in this only views please.

[Shaker]

Could somebody help out on this puzzle. Why is gender reassignment in principle correct but sexuality reassignment in principle wrong.

Sexuality reassignment doesn't work, for starters. The 'best' it does (sarcasm alert) is to give some people the temporary illusion of having changed their sexual orientation almost always to match somebody else's religion-based idiotic ideas about sexuality.

Like creationism, it's a religiously-inspired pseudoscience. It's widely banned for a reason.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sexuality reassignment doesn't work, for starters. The 'best' it does (sarcasm alert) is to give some people the temporary illusion of having changed their sexual orientation almost always to match somebody else's religion-based idiotic ideas about sexuality.

In what what way then does Gender reassignment work? Why is there no illusion of having changed their gender rather than being their original gender with surgery?

[Shaker]

In what what way then does Gender reassignment work? Why is there no illusion of having changed their gender rather than being their original generation with surgery?

The idea behind gender reassignment is to change the outer to match the inner - so that those who feel their body doesn't match their psychosexual identify are on the same page, so to speak.

[Aruntraveller]

Could somebody help out on this puzzle. Why is gender reassignment in principle correct but sexuality reassignment in principle wrong.
Doesn't gender reassignment involve sexuality reassignment?
No offence since I have no personal experience in this only views please.

This is one of the issues I have with LGBT being under one umbrella title  - as the T bit of the LGBT is a fundamentally different issue. That's not to say it shouldn't receive just as much attention/discussion/understanding, it's just that I think lumping it in with LBG issues doesn't help lend clarity to the situation.

I really struggle to understand the transgender issue myself as I see it as much more complicated to deal with than sexuality, so it's not really surprising that there are so many divergent views on the issue.

As Shaker says there is mountains of evidence, both professional & personal to discount sexuality reassignment - equally there is more and more evidence that gender reassignment does indeed improve the lives of those transgendered people involved.

[Shaker]

This is one of the issues I have with LGBT being under one umbrella title

I struggle with LGBT issues myself.

I mean, I know that the BLT bit is bacon, lettuce and tomato, but what does the G stand for?

And now back to your scheduled thread 

[Gordon]

Could somebody help out on this puzzle. Why is gender reassignment in principle correct but sexuality reassignment in principle wrong.
Doesn't gender reassignment involve sexuality reassignment?
No offence since I have no personal experience in this only views please.

Neither do I, but I suspect gender reassignment involves dealing with something that the person involved feels is problematic for them in a personal basis,  and this no doubt involves a range of aspects that may vary.

Sexual reassignment, from what I've read, seems to be more about people other than the person involved feeling that something needs to be corrected, such as 'curing' people of homosexuality. In my experience most homosexual people I've met are usually comfortable being themselves (there may be exceptions of course) and many of us now recognise that homosexuality is just one aspect of sexuality - I never heard it suggested that people be 'cured' of heterosexuality.

[Shaker]

Sexual reassignment, from what I've read, seems to be more about people other than the person involved feeling that something needs to be corrected, such as 'curing' people of homosexuality.

I think that this is the nub of it, surely - the whole concept of conversion therapy seems to be predicated on the idea that a gay person has to change to conform to somebody else's opinions about sexuality, whereas gender reassignment is based on a personally-felt disparity about gender.

[Rhiannon]

This is one of the issues I have with LGBT being under one umbrella title  - as the T bit of the LGBT is a fundamentally different issue. That's not to say it shouldn't receive just as much attention/discussion/understanding, it's just that I think lumping it in with LBG issues doesn't help lend clarity to the situation.

I really struggle to understand the transgender issue myself as I see it as much more complicated to deal with than sexuality, so it's not really surprising that there are so many divergent views on the issue.

As Shaker says there is mountains of evidence, both professional & personal to discount sexuality reassignment - equally there is more and more evidence that gender reassignment does indeed improve the lives of those transgendered people involved.

Agree with this very much, Trent.

I think that increasingly we are realising that while our sexuality is something innate, gender is learned. I look in mystification at trans women such as Kellie Maloney talking about how she now feels like a woman because of how extensive her new wardrobe is, but presumably somewhere down the line she has learned that having a lot of very glamorous clothing is a part of being a woman, or a woman as she wants to be. I don't know. As you say, it is terribly complicated.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Neither do I, but I suspect gender reassignment involves dealing with something that the person involved feels is problematic for them in a personal basis,  and this no doubt involves a range of aspects that may vary.

Sexual reassignment, from what I've read, seems to be more about people other than the person involved feeling that something needs to be corrected, such as 'curing' people of homosexuality. In my experience most homosexual people I've met are usually comfortable being themselves (there may be exceptions of course) and many of us now recognise that homosexuality is just one aspect of sexuality - I never heard it suggested that people be 'cured' of heterosexuality.

An informed answer, and it suggests that somebody seeking a gender change because they are a man or whatever because ''men are bad'' or'' it's bad being a man'' or ''maleness needs curing'' would receive the same advice as somebody seeking to change sexuality because they thought homosexuality was bad.

And maybe the same argument exists against assisted dying i.e. the danger of the decision being due to peer, familial, social and economic pressure.

I also take Shakers point or argumentum ad non consequentium that bad therapies should not be allowed

However what about the person who presents with an attitude that homosexuality is not bad but that they want to personally change sexuality?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This is one of the issues I have with LGBT being under one umbrella title  - as the T bit of the LGBT is a fundamentally different issue. That's not to say it shouldn't receive just as much attention/discussion/understanding, it's just that I think lumping it in with LBG issues doesn't help lend clarity to the situation.

Would you say that the T part of LGBT presents some huge issues for LGB where a person changes sex and therefore become effectively heterosexual?

Are you suggesting therefore a cutting adrift of T?

[Rhiannon]

Would you say that the T part of LGBT presents some huge issues for LGB where a person changes sex and therefore become effectively heterosexual?

Are you suggesting therefore a cutting adrift of T?

It doesn't work like that. That's a massive simplification.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It doesn't work like that. That's a massive simplification.

Please justify.

[Rhiannon]

Please justify.

Some trans people are bi. Some are gay. Some are heterosexual.

It's not rocket science. Gender and sexuality aren't the same thing, remember.

[Aruntraveller]

Would you say that the T part of LGBT presents some huge issues for LGB where a person changes sex and therefore become effectively heterosexual?

Are you suggesting therefore a cutting adrift of T?

More complicated than that - I do know people who are both transgendered and gay. That is they changed from a woman to a man but still fancied men.

I'm not saying cutting adrift - I just am questioning whether the T's best interests are served by belonging to a grouping which has very different issues and concerns. I am not saying that they don't suffer discrimination, because I think they do and I think they suffer significantly more discrimination. So does the distraction of other more 'accepted' groups e.g. LGB work against what needs to happen for Transgendered people?

As I said previously I find the whole issue difficult to deal with - not as in I don't like transgendered people - but as in I don't really understand it. What I know is that advances for gay people have been generally very good, for transgendered less so in terms of attitudes. Does a rethink of how trans people approach the issue in terms of visibility and identity need to be looked at?

As you have probably guessed, I don't know - I'm just putting the doubts and random thoughts that occur to me out there. I don't claim they are correct. I just wonder if there is a better way to help transgendered people in our society.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Some trans people are bi. Some are gay. Some are heterosexual.

It's not rocket science. Gender and sexuality aren't the same thing, remember.

I think you are desperately trying to steer us away from something Trent has raised namely not all are comfortable with the term LGBT.
Some transpeople may be Bi and presumably gender change would not change anything their. A Gay man or woman transitioning would become a member of the opposite sex and therefore heterosexual and a heterosexual person transitioning becomes a gay person. The middle group have therefore achieved sexuality reorientation which is what is being argued as undesirable.

[Rhiannon]

More complicated than that - I do know people who are both transgendered and gay. That is they changed from a woman to a man but still fancied men.

I'm not saying cutting adrift - I just am questioning whether the T's best interests are served by belonging to a grouping which has very different issues and concerns. I am not saying that they don't suffer discrimination, because I think they do and I think they suffer significantly more discrimination. So does the distraction of other more 'accepted' groups e.g. LGB work against what needs to happen for Transgendered people?

As I said previously I find the whole issue difficult to deal with - not as in I don't like transgendered people - but as in I don't really understand it. What I know is that advances for gay people have been generally very good, for transgendered less so in terms of attitudes. Does a rethink of how trans people approach the issue in terms of visibility and identity need to be looked at?

As you have probably guessed, I don't know - I'm just putting the doubts and random thoughts that occur to me out there. I don't claim they are correct. I just wonder if there is a better way to help transgendered people in our society.

Yes, this makes sense to me. Someone who is both trans and gay or bi will want to be a part of that community. But not all trans people identify as such.

Like you I don't really understand how it must be but from what I have seen the trans experience varies so much for the individuals affected.

[Rhiannon]

I think you are desperately trying to steer us away from something Trent has raised namely not all are comfortable with the term LGBT.

Don't be an idiot. I've already agreed with him.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes, this makes sense to me. Someone who is both trans and gay or bi will want to be a part of that community. But not all trans people identify as such.

Like you I don't really understand how it must be but from what I have seen the trans experience varies so much for the individuals affected.

I'm sorry but you still seem to be minimising that group of people whose change of gender renders them heterosexual. What about them? What do they have in common with LGB?

[Aruntraveller]

I'm sorry but you still seem to be minimising that group of people whose change of gender renders them heterosexual. What about them? What do they have in common with LGB?

Except that in reality although they are 'rendered' heterosexual, many other heterosexuals feel distinctly uncomfortable with them - so much so that the whole issue of which toilet should be used is raised to the same level as national security in some people's (admittedly, mostly dim-witted Americans) minds. Not to mention a whole host of other prejudices they will suffer. I suspect that is one of the reasons why they are bracketed with LGB, because if there is one thing gay people do know about, it is dim-witted prejudice.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Except that in reality although they are 'rendered' heterosexual, many other heterosexuals feel distinctly uncomfortable with them

That's true and probably no distinction is made in these prejudices against gay or straight transsexuals......... but what about attitudes in the LGB community towards people whose change of gender changes them from gay to heterosexual?

[Aruntraveller]

That's true but what about attitudes in the LGB community towards these folks?

Well that's another can of worms. LGB community does exist - but it is varied. For instance racial prejudice exists as much in the gay community as it does within the wider community. What does that tell you? Gay people can be stupid too. I've never witnessed any overt hostility or prejudice in the circles I inhabit - but then I only know nice people 

I would hope that at the very least transgendered people get a kinder more sympathetic approach from most of the LGB community - but that is only a hope. Who knows?

You'd think people who have had massive prejudice held against them would recognize it happening to others. However as we know from human history it doesn't really work that way.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Whilst that may, in part be true, the truth of the matter is LGBT people do know what it is like to be heterosexual. After all society certainly in my young days went out of its way to make sure we were as straight as possible. It is a testament to my own fabulousness that society failed miserably.

Haha - while I agree on how fabulous you are Trent, I am not sure what you mean by you know what it is like to be heterosexual.

If you mean it in the same way that I know what it is like to be gay - as in the object of my attraction is irrelevant since the physiological and psychological feelings and responses of attraction in the individual are very similar regardless of the sex of the object of the attraction, then I agree. But is there some way that gay people interact with each other and groups that is different from the way heterosexual people interact with each other and in groups? I would have thought that the feelings of being an outsider and not accepted by the group can be experienced by anyone - I am heterosexual but my chosen behaviour of not dating while at school meant I felt an outsider because I had not experienced what my friends had experienced and therefore could not fully participate in the conversation based on first-hand experience. There are many times I don't behave according to conventional gender stereotypes and therefore cannot share experiences with a group of women, who do conform to those stereotypes. 

I do feel that a certain competitiveness has crept into this debate which I feel is wholly unwelcome in what is a sensitive and difficult area. The unfortunate child clearly had a lot of very emotional issues to deal with - not the least of which was losing a parent. It is very difficult to get your head back into the mind of a teenager after all these years passed - but what I do remember was an emotional volatility linked with an absolute conviction that I was right about everything. This, fortunately in my case, only led to some serious embarrassments during the quagmire that is adolescence. That in others it inspires suicidal thoughts, and sadly, as in this case, actions is not to me surprising. What is more worrying is our lack of ability to do anything much about it.

It might seem competitive but I think it is important to challenge accepted narratives and acknowledge that there are alternate narratives.

I think one of the problems with teenage immaturity is this feeling that how you feel now or the situation that you find yourself in now is going to be that way forever - and a year feels like forever to a teenager. It takes life experience to figure out that time passes quicker than you anticipated and intense emotions dissipate and therefore it's best to make important decisions once you have cooled down or thought it through and analysed your feelings over a period of time, with input from other people to help clarify your priorities.   

I don't think the headteacher was particularly disrespectful - perhaps lacking in clarity of thought, but just maybe she was upset at the death of a child partly under her care. It's easy in life to jump to conclusions but much less easy to row back from them, as has been evidenced by this discussion.

Maybe she was following a policy that she felt was in the best interests of the school as a whole until a new policy was reached. For example, when deciding holiday, study-leave, sick leave policies a business or organisation would balance competing interests, and a particular member of staff might feel the policy does not suit their individual circumstances and feel really upset that the business can't make exceptions for them - but if the organisation make an exception for them, then it puts itself in the position of potentially having to make an exception for every other individual circumstance and managers investigating and arguing the issue with every single employee that thinks they have a chance of being the exception is going to take time away from collecting income to pay salary and overheads or it mean the HR person spends all their time at work and their family relationships suffer. Hence it is better for the organisation or HR person to stick to the existing policy until time is set aside to discuss, investigate, consult and agree on a a new policy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What it must be like to be an autoeroticist with Peter Tatchell, The chief Rabbi, Richard Dawkins and Eddie Izzard standing on the other side of the road together all chanting ''You wanker'' at you.