Another blow for LGBT to try and get something positive from?

[Robbie]

It is a long process.  The Charing Cross Hospital in London has a well known clinic for gender reassignment.  Patients are assessed by a multidisciplinary team and have to live as far as possible as a person of the opposite sex for some time, taking hormones etc.   The medics need to be as sure as possible that the person understands everything involved in changing their sex because the surgery is so drastic.   There must be a lower age limit, I don't know what that is but it makes sense for the patient to be mature.

[Sebastian Toe]

When I was in OTC at university my uniform was the same as a man's uniform - we just wore combat dress because the uniforms presumably were supposed to be functional, enabling us to train while protecting our skin. Introducing trousers seems functional rather than a gender issue. Do Scottish soldiers train/fight in kilts - and what are the implications of the jokes about kilts and modesty?

The last time kilts were worn in combat was early in WWII I believe.

[wigginhall]

It is a long process.  The Charing Cross Hospital in London has a well known clinic for gender reassignment.  Patients are assessed by a multidisciplinary team and have to live as far as possible as a person of the opposite sex for some time, taking hormones etc.   The medics need to be as sure as possible that the person understands everything involved in changing their sex because the surgery is so drastic.   There must be a lower age limit, I don't know what that is but it makes sense for the patient to be mature.

They have been doing it a long time, as I think Rachael Padman went there initially, at the start of her transition.  She is the physicist who ended up at Newnham College Cambridge, and sparked a controversy, as some people objected to her being a Fellow, as it's an all-female college.  But the college accepted her with open arms. 

But I think she started in the late 70s.  She is a pioneer, along with Jan Morris, whose career is famously described as soldier, Times journalist, father of five, and woman. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I'm  not sure if skirts are being seen as decorative.   Some parents seem  to  be objecting to trousers as their daughters want to be feminine, or female.   That's not the same as decorative, is it?

I don't think so - my husband sometimes looks decorative - especially when he is wearing Asian outfits. So I think men and women can be decorative, but not sure if a skirt is as functional as trousers at a school, especially if it is short and stops you running, using the elevated playground equipment, sitting comfortably on the floor or getting up off the floor, walking upstairs without revealing your underwear to people behind you or it can get blown up in the wind.

I don't see why some parents don't consider trousers to be feminine as lots of women wear them and feminine would mean something associated with or a characteristic of women. 

I am pretty ignorant about trans stuff, although I was involved in gender studies from the 80s, but trans was not really prominent then.   I am curious about it as there seems to be a lot of publicity about it.

So am I. Presumably there are trans people and non-trans people who both dress fairly gender-neutral and have gender-neutral names, so not sure what it is trans people are looking for to feel that they are at peace with themselves.

[Rhiannon]

So am I. Presumably there are trans people and non-trans people who both dress fairly gender-neutral and have gender-neutral names, so not sure what it is trans people are looking for to feel that they are at peace with themselves.

It's a very individual thing from what I have seen. An old friend's daughter is trans and she wears what most horsey people round here do - jeans or jodhpurs, a gilet, wellies and a Barbour. She just looks like everyone else. I think I probably get that more than I do the experience of someone like Kellie Maloney who clearly does equate femininity with glamour. Her experience and understanding of being a woman is very unlike mine.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It's a very individual thing from what I have seen. An old friend's daughter is trans and she wears what most horsey people round here do - jeans or jodhpurs, a gilet, wellies and a Barbour. She just looks like everyone else. I think I probably get that more than I do the experience of someone like Kellie Maloney who clearly does equate femininity with glamour. Her experience and understanding of being a woman is very unlike mine.

In certain Asian cultures both men and women can look glamorous for special events, but generally women do end up looking a lot more sparkly. I am so glad to get into comfortable clothes afterwards - in the glamorous outfits  I can't walk properly as the shoes don't grip your feet properly, my feet hurt if I am wearing high heels, the material is thin so I can be cold or you have to worry about it ripping. Ok it looks good but totally impractical and it is something I put up with more than enjoy - including the extra time it takes to get ready.  I can't relate to the people who enjoy that whole experience.

 

[Rhiannon]

In certain Asian cultures both men and women can look glamorous for special events, but generally women do end up looking a lot more sparkly. I am so glad to get into comfortable clothes afterwards - in the glamorous outfits  I can't walk properly as the shoes don't grip your feet properly, my feet hurt if I am wearing high heels, the material is thin so I can be cold or you have to worry about it ripping. Ok it looks good but totally impractical and it is something I put up with more than enjoy - including the extra time it takes to get ready.  I can't relate to the people who enjoy that whole experience.

Well yeah, I've done glamour. Not so much these days now I've swapped corporate London for rural living. It doesn't define me though and never has, and where I struggle is when someone seems to think that is what being a woman is about. Maybe it's just the initial excitement of being free to find self expression.

[Owlswing]

I don't think so - my husband sometimes looks decorative - especially when he is wearing Asian outfits. So I think men and women can be decorative, but not sure if a skirt is as functional as trousers at a school, especially if it is short and stops you running, using the elevated playground equipment, sitting comfortably on the floor or getting up off the floor, walking upstairs without revealing your underwear to people behind you or it can get blown up in the wind.

I don't see why some parents don't consider trousers to be feminine as lots of women wear them and feminine would mean something associated with or a characteristic of women. 
So am I. Presumably there are trans people and non-trans people who both dress fairly gender-neutral and have gender-neutral names, so not sure what it is trans people are looking for to feel that they are at peace with themselves.

Quite simply they want not to be identified as 'different'! To be accepted as men and women, not as Trans, Tranny, Freak, Poof, Wierdo, Sissy etc ad infinitum.

They want to be able to be what they 'are' and not what the world, particularly some of the religious world, demand that they be.

To put it in a way that you might, just possibly, understand, a forlorn hope I know, they want not to be in a position which is like what Sassy would feel if it were determined that everyone MUST be Haitian VooDoo and if they are not they must be forced to be regardless of how distasteful and traumatic it might be to them!

This is not the best description of the situation but, is, I hope, one that the denizens of this Forum might understand. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

No I do understand that identity is important to people  - as an atheist who became a theist, I am all for people being accepted for whatever identity they want to assume/ identify with, rather than being told you have to be Caucasian or Chinese or Black or gay or straight or whatever based on your biology / environment / nurture you have received. So long as they are law-abiding I don't think it matters if biologically they are not the identity that they are assuming and feel most comfortable with in their heads. We live in a world where we categorise things according to certain characteristics because it keeps things simple, and re-categorising based on what is in someone else's head rather than what you yourself observe takes time and effort. 

I think people who make an obvious identity change are unrealistic though if they expect universal acceptance - people are going to notice and a lot of people will naturally react with confusion and suspicion if they are a black person assuming a Chinese identity or a man assuming a female identity, unless the person assuming the new identity has had some excellent surgery and drugs that mask their biology. If there is something unusual about you that does not conform to norms, stereotypes or expectations, people notice and we have evolved to be wary of the 'other' or unknown. I think that some resistance to the change should be expected from some people and some kind of plan to cope with it is helpful for your mental well-being. 

I remember being at a Peter Maxwell-Davies 70th birthday party/ concert (I don't like his music) and chatting to a gay man with a beard who was wearing a dress and it was confusing at first trying to get my head around what my eyes were seeing and who this person was presenting themselves as in order to figure out what to talk to them about.   

[Aruntraveller]

Beards have the same wffect on me Gabby.

[Rhiannon]

https://www.bristlr.com

[Shaker]

Well I'm in with somebody or other.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Beards have the same wffect on me Gabby.

And it wasn't even a nice dress. Normally at parties you can break the ice by saying I like your dress.

He probably found us equally baffling -  a couple of accountants at a party of middle-age/ oldish artsy people.