Why Christianity survived.

[ProfessorDavey]

Sigh...
Qwerty was successful precisely because it slowed typists down, and was thus inferior to other arrangements, but in the early days that stopped typewriters jamming. That is no longer a problem, but we keep the slow, inefficient qwerty arrangement because everyone's got used to it. It really is quite simple. Do try to keep up. ("its superiority", by the way - no apostrophe.)

It wasn't 'superior', it was an appropriate solution to an inherent problem elsewhere in the technology.

But even if you were to consider it 'superior', it's superiority was transient as the mechanical technology was rapidly improved and ultimately replaced by electrical technology. So it has not been 'superior' (in other words permitting most rapid typing) for the past 50 years or more - however as it is the 'standard' it is retained.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Liar Boy,

I was replying to Vlad, not you.

You are Vlad, and your mistakes is still your mistake regardless of who it was addressed to.

[SteveH]

Any more insults and lies from you, and I'll be reporting you to the mods.

[SteveH]

It wasn't 'superior', it was an appropriate solution to an inherent problem elsewhere in the technology.

But even if you were to consider it 'superior', it's superiority was transient as the mechanical technology was rapidly improved and ultimately replaced by electrical technology. So it has not been 'superior' (in other words permitting most rapid typing) for the past 50 years or more - however as it is the 'standard' it is retained.

That's what I said, ffs!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Liar Boy,

Any more insults and lies from you, and I'll be reporting you to the mods.

What insults, and are you suggesting that you're yet not another of Vlad's reinventions?

[Gordon]

Moderator:

Can I step in here to prevent this exchange escalating.

BHS - 'J. Peasemold Gruntfuttock' is not Vlad.

So, can we all amble back towards the general direction of the topic.

Thank you.

[SteveH]

Thank you.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gordon,

Can I step in here to prevent this exchange escalation.

BHS - 'J. Peasemold Gruntfuttock' is not Vlad.

So, can be all amble back towards the general direction of the topic.

Thank you.

Than I apologise. My reasons for thinking that he was were that the style is the same, the misrepresentation is the same, and the most recent joiner (quite a while ago) is "Lynn".

[bluehillside Retd.]

JPG,

That's what I said, ffs!

But what you said completely missed the point - namely the retro-fitting of an explanation often has nothing to do with the real ones. "QWERTY is the best layout because the most commonly used letters are reached easily" for example. Similarly, "Christianity survived because its stories are true" is to ignore the many possible reasons for survival that have nothing to do with the truth or otherwise of its claims.     

[bluehillside Retd.]

Ah, So There's the Real Liar Boy Back Again,

But I have given no account of the success of QWERTY only restated why it was qwerty rather than ABC which as you so was superior in that it didn't jam up the keyboards.

What you actually said was: "But you've already demonstrated that qwerty was superior to ABC have you not?", which was utterly irrelevant to the point – namely that what was causally "superior" is often very different from the reasons people think to be causally superior after the event.

Your mistake in other words was the "But".   

[ProfessorDavey]

That's what I said, ffs!

Calm down - I never said you didn't I was broadly agreeing with your post specifically repudiating Vlad's claim that superiority is part of the QWERTY story.

I don't think superior was ever the case as you can't really detach the keyboard from the rest of the machine.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Calm down - I never said you didn't I was broadly agreeing with your post specifically repudiating Vlad's claim that superiority is part of the QWERTY story.

I don't think superior was ever the case as you can't really detach the keyboard from the rest of the machine.

I've given up reminding people that Qwerty was superior to ABC in that it didn't jam up keyboards....a fact i'd only learnt from Hillside because this thread has become....not so much an ''angels on a pin head'' argument but a ''How many letters can you get on a daisy wheel'' HA HA HA HA HA HA......Now that's got to get on a forum best bits section.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Liar Boy,

I've given up reminding people that Qwerty was superior to ABC in that it didn't jam up keyboards....a fact i'd only learnt from Hillside because this thread has become....not so much an ''angels on a pin head'' argument but a ''How many letters can you get on a daisy wheel'' HA HA HA HA HA HA......Now that's got to get on a forum best bits section.

In what way do you think QWERTY being superior to ABC only inasmuch as it better reduced the jamming of mechanical keys has any relevance at all to the point actually being made, namely that attributing a different causal explanation after the event is a mistake?   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Liar Boy,

In what way do you think QWERTY being superior to ABC only inasmuch as it better reduced the jamming of mechanical keys has any relevance at all to the point actually being made, namely that attributing a different causal explanation after the event is a mistake?

It is arguable that it captured the niche due to a temporary superiority and has been deemed fit enough by history for that niche. Your argument seems to be that that it's persistence is due to some kind of human incompetence.

[ProfessorDavey]

It is arguable that it captured the niche due to a temporary superiority and has been deemed fit enough by history for that niche. Your argument seems to be that that it's persistence is due to some kind of human incompetence.

But you cannot detach the keyboard from the rest of the typewriter.

One without the other is completely pointless. So a particular design of a typewriter with a sub-optimal mechanical system coupled with a sub-optimal keyboard proved together to be the best overall design for a relatively short period of time. Subsequently there was progressive optimisation of the non key-board components, both first mechanically and then electronically to make them more optimal, and therefore consistent with optimisation of the keyboard. However optimisation of the keyboard failed to progress, likely because this is the bit with the human/machine interface and therefore familiarity and consistency became a factor.

[Gordon]

That QWERTY was needed to prevent mechanical problems might not be the case as noted in this article;

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-the-legend-of-the-qwerty-keyboard-49863249/?no-ist

Of course, leaving mechanics aside, familiarity is crucial - I'd imagine most of us are competent on a keyboard and can type fairly fluently: anyone fancy relearning on a different keyboard layout?

[floo]

That QWERTY was needed to prevent mechanical problems might not be the case as noted in this article;

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-the-legend-of-the-qwerty-keyboard-49863249/?no-ist

Of course, leaving mechanics aside, familiarity is crucial - I'd imagine most of us are competent on a keyboard and can type fairly fluently: anyone fancy relearning on a different keyboard layout?

Definitely not.

[SteveH]

A simple alphabetical-order keyboard wouldn't take too much re-learning.

[bluehillside Retd.]

JPG,

A simple alphabetical-order keyboard wouldn't take too much re-learning.

Relevance?

The point was that survivor bias entails attributing after the event a wrong cause for the success of the winners while ignoring the causes of the failures of the losers.

Are you sure you're not Vlad? 

[Dicky Underpants]

JPG,

Relevance?

The point was that survivor bias entails attributing after the event a wrong cause for the success of the winners while ignoring the causes of the failures of the losers.

Are you sure you're not Vlad?

Hi blue

J Peasemold Gruntfuttock is almost certainly SteveH, since it's a moniker he has used before (along with Rambling Syd Rumpo) on other forums years ago, such as St Thads. The two rustic aliases first appeared as characters on old radio comedy shows such as Round the Horne and Beyond Our Ken.

[floo]

Hi blue

J Peasemold Gruntfuttock is almost certainly SteveH, since it's a moniker he has used before (along with Rambling Syd Rumpo) on other forums years ago, such as St Thads. The two rustic aliases first appeared as characters on old radio comedy shows such as Round the Horne and Beyond Our Ken.

Definitely Steve H

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Dicky,

Hi blue

J Peasemold Gruntfuttock is almost certainly SteveH, since it's a moniker he has used before (along with Rambling Syd Rumpo) on other forums years ago, such as St Thads. The two rustic aliases first appeared as characters on old radio comedy shows such as Round the Horne and Beyond Our Ken.

Thanks for this - I knew the references, but hadn't twigged that it was SteveH hiding behind them. Like Vlad though, he fixates on the object of the analogy - typewriters in this case - rather than on the force of the argument the analogy makes. Doubtless if I were to tell either of them that something was like looking for a needle in a haystack many posts would follow about the quality of steel used in the manufacture of the needle, whether it was a darning, sewing or some other type, what colour it was etc too. 

The literal and the unironic minds have in my experience much in common.   

[Dicky Underpants]

The point was that survivor bias entails attributing after the event a wrong cause for the success of the winners while ignoring the causes of the failures of the losers.

Can we stick with that then with respect to the survival of Christianity rather than discussing typewriters? With regard to the cause for the failure of one loser - Mithraism - I suggested that one reason it failed is simply that it lacked the female element that Christianity provided. It was men only.
I'm interested in any ideas people may care to retro-fit onto Christianity, provided they don't deal with truth claims about divine inspiration (but believers are welcome to grind their axes). That was implied in my first post. Even Vlad suggested two ideas which do not have to be interpreted in a 'spiritual' sense (if you feel you are forgiven, it doesn't matter if there is no big daddy there doing the forgiving. Psychological explanations work just as well) All suggestions may be well be wide of the mark, but give it a go. Anyone want to expand of wiggi's views about Jung?

Sorry I misrepresented you earlier, blue.

[Dicky Underpants]

something was like looking for a needle in a haystack

Well, this whole thread may be just that, but it just may have legs given a chance.

[ProfessorDavey]

A simple alphabetical-order keyboard wouldn't take too much re-learning.

But would someone buy it as it wouldn't be familiar. And why would you bother learning to use a new format rather than keep with the old and familiar, noting that most of us are poor typists so we aren't likely to realise the benefits of a new keyboard which ultimately allows a good typist to type a bit faster than a QWERTY one.