Author Topic: Why Christianity survived.  (Read 15856 times)

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2017, 04:19:10 PM »
Can I just try and tease out definitions here. What do you mean by Christianity?

I think you should try and tell us what you mean by it, Vlad.

I'm happy to let anyone who chooses to call themselves a Christian and who try to follow the way of Christ as they understand it, as being part of 'Christianity'. If you want to tie it down to a list of specifics such as "Belief that God is a Trinity", "belief that Jesus was God Incarnate", "belief that he'll come again to wind up history", basing this loosely around the Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican Church and a few other choice Protestant groups, then I'd have to say that even in those there are a lot of grey areas and woolly edges.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2017, 04:23:09 PM »
Only Christianity and Judaism commanded people not to tolerate other gods (at least, as far as we know).

I think the Book of Micah seems more tolerant of other gods - even though there's an implication that the Jewish god is the best one.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2017, 04:37:12 PM »
I think Jung waxed lyrical about the role of Virgin Mary in Christianity as a kind of semi-divine female figure, although curiously, the Proddies got rid of her mainly.   

Indeed he did. And I've always found it quite astonishing that he got so excited* when the "Assumption of the Virgin" became infallible dogma in the Catholic Church in 1950 (one of the two - or three? - "infallible" statements made by popes throughout Church history) I'd always taken issue with the idea of a pope being 'infallible' on anything, even though it boiled down to a few statements about the Virgin, since these struck me as being assertions that had no basis in the NT at all, and were pretty meaningless anyway.
I can see now why Jung thought the latter statement being important, because it was at least an acknowledgement of the importance of the "feminine" (as virtually part of the godhead) - even though this 'feminine' seemed pretty well stripped of a few important aspects of human female experience (she was supposed to be a virgin after all).

*
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One could have known for a long time that there was a deep longing in the masses for an intercessor and mediatrix who would at last take her place alongside the Holy Trinity and be received as the ‘Queen of heaven and Bride at the heavenly court.’ For more than a thousand years it has been taken for granted that the Mother of God dwelt there.   I consider it to be the most important religious event since the Reformation.
” (Jung: Answer to Job
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2017, 05:22:04 PM »
I think the Book of Micah seems more tolerant of other gods - even though there's an implication that the Jewish god is the best one.
I find it hard that People who are in some way obvious disciples of Richard Dawkins message on how to be a proper atheist (see the God Delusion) have the temerity to talk about religious tolerance.

Let us not forget the section in the ''God'' book deriding and outlining how to spot an atheist ''heretic''.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:29:39 PM by The Good, The Vlad and the Ugly »

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2017, 03:17:44 PM »
I find it hard that People who are in some way obvious disciples of Richard Dawkins message on how to be a proper atheist (see the God Delusion) have the temerity to talk about religious tolerance.

Let us not forget the section in the ''God'' book deriding and outlining how to spot an atheist ''heretic''.

What is this pathological obsession that you have with Richard Dawkins, Vlad? I'm not sure whether you were addressing your post to Jeremy, who first raised the matter of Judaeo/Christian intolerance, or me, who was pointing out that a certain part of the Bible (not the only one) is not so intolerant - or is this just another example of your scatter-gun approach? Whatever, I'm pretty sure that Jeremy lost his faith way before RD ever wrote TGD, and I certainly ceased to be any sort of theist before the writing of the same, or before I'd read any of Dawkins' books (of which I think TGD is not one of his best by any means).
How ironic than that you should be directing people to re-read parts of TGD :)
Maybe it's also ironic that I should be directing you to the Book of Micah, particularly Chapter 4. I presume you have actually read it?
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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floo

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2017, 03:35:38 PM »
What is this pathological obsession that you have with Richard Dawkins, Vlad? I'm not sure whether you were addressing your post to Jeremy, who first raised the matter of Judaeo/Christian intolerance, or me, who was pointing out that a certain part of the Bible (not the only one) is not so intolerant - or is this just another example of your scatter-gun approach? Whatever, I'm pretty sure that Jeremy lost his faith way before RD ever wrote TGD, and I certainly ceased to be any sort of theist before the writing of the same, or before I'd read any of Dawkins' books (of which I think TGD is not one of his best by any means).
How ironic than that you should be directing people to re-read parts of TGD :)
Maybe it's also ironic that I should be directing you to the Book of Micah, particularly Chapter 4. I presume you have actually read it?

Maybe Vlad is in love with Dawkins, but in denial! ;D ;D ;D

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2017, 04:19:09 PM »

One of the reasons sometimes given for the survival and growth of Christianity is that it somehow, because of its success, points towards the existence of the Christian God. So, to show how nonsensical an argument that would be, I referred to the extraordinary growth of the LDS church, and the even more extra ordinary growth of irreligion in the last 100 or so years. They don't exactly fit well with such a presumption do they?



Enki

The case of the LDS is interesting, and its growth and transformation in some ways mirrors what happened to the traditional Christian church. I mentioned that I thought that one of the reasons why Christianity took off with such force was because of its apocalyptic character - people were led to believe that God was about to wind up history, so it was a matter of utmost urgency that individuals got into the right herd of sheep or goats. Trad Christianity managed to put off the imminent end of the world to the first millennium, and then almost indefinitely.
Joe Smith's imaginings and fake Book of Mormon managed to salvage this apocalyptic note from the original Judaeo/Christian scriptures, and spread the idea that the Kingdom of God would imminently be set up in America. Brigham Young continued the urgent message in his trek to Salt Lake City. Thereafter, the sense of imminent apocalypse abated somewhat and many of Smith's original teachings were completely altered. There are now many other reasons for the religion's apparent global success. I'm not sure what all of these might be, though no doubt the prospect of ruling your own planet is probably quite a draw :)
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2017, 06:11:40 PM »
What is this pathological obsession that you have with Richard Dawkins, Vlad? I'm not sure whether you were addressing your post to Jeremy, who first raised the matter of Judaeo/Christian intolerance, or me, who was pointing out that a certain part of the Bible (not the only one) is not so intolerant - or is this just another example of your scatter-gun approach? Whatever, I'm pretty sure that Jeremy lost his faith way before RD ever wrote TGD, and I certainly ceased to be any sort of theist before the writing of the same, or before I'd read any of Dawkins' books (of which I think TGD is not one of his best by any means).
How ironic than that you should be directing people to re-read parts of TGD :)
Maybe it's also ironic that I should be directing you to the Book of Micah, particularly Chapter 4. I presume you have actually read it?
I don't have an obsession with him.
I am interested in movers and shakers in the history of religion...and Richard Dawkins holds an important place in the stealth religion phenomenon which is New Atheism..
He is far bigger IMHO than Lewis, Graham, Pope John Paul who with one or two other popes kept Christianity in the public sphere in the 20th century.
I really think he's up there with Joseph Smith, The Wesley's Charles Taze Russell but maybe not Luther, Calvin or the various Doctors of the Church

Gordon

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2017, 06:18:11 PM »
I don't have an obsession with him.

Oh yes you do!

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I am interested in movers and shakers in the history of religion...and Richard Dawkins holds an important place in the stealth religion phenomenon which is New Atheism..

You certainly seem to think so but I'm struggling to name any atheists here who have referred to RD as often as you. You seem to be mildly (or not so mildly) obsessed by him.

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He is far bigger IMHO than Lewis, Graham, Pope John Paul who with one or two other popes kept Christianity in the public sphere in the 20th century.

Thank you for expressing your opinion.

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I really think he's up there with Joseph Smith, The Wesley's Charles Taze Russell but maybe not Luther, Calvin or the various Doctors of the Church

Do you really: that's nice.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2017, 06:39:16 PM »
Oh yes you do!

You certainly seem to think so but I'm struggling to name any atheists here who have referred to RD as often as you. You seem to be mildly (or not so mildly) obsessed by him.

But without him would you even be here? Since atheism used to be more Jonathan Miller than The Four Horsemen and Dawkinisms pepper the argument.

Gordon

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2017, 06:41:56 PM »
But without him would you even be here? Since atheism used to be more Jonathan Miller than The Four Horsemen and Dawkinisms pepper the argument.

Yes to the first sentence: your second sentence is, unsurprisingly, meaningless drivel.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2017, 06:58:13 PM »
I don't have an obsession with him.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
You got on stage before it wore off!
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SteveH

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2017, 08:23:27 AM »
I don't have an obsession with him.
I am interested in movers and shakers in the history of religion...and Richard Dawkins holds an important place in the stealth religion phenomenon which is New Atheism..
He is far bigger IMHO than Lewis, Graham, Pope John Paul who with one or two other popes kept Christianity in the public sphere in the 20th century.
I really think he's up there with Joseph Smith, The Wesley's Charles Taze Russell but maybe not Luther, Calvin or the various Doctors of the Church
Dawkins is a very important scientist, but a pretty crap philosopher. Like C.S.Lewis, who was a third-rate theologian although a great literary critic and historian, he should never have strayed beyond his speciality.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2017, 10:57:17 AM »
Dawkins is a very important scientist, but a pretty crap philosopher. Like C.S.Lewis, who was a third-rate theologian although a great literary critic and historian, he should never have strayed beyond his speciality.
I confess to never having read Lewis with any sense that his writings were original or academic theological writings. He might draw from theological ideas but is  an apologist. If anything he is an explainer of theology in which case he was first rate.

As far as Dawkins is concerned, having ''Got'' Darwinism myself years earlier I confess not to seeing Dawkins books as anything startling. They are not scientific papers and one must see what their actual effects were in academic science. But he is more instrumental in the invention of a new stealth religion whereas Lewis is part of a long line.

Dawkins religious achievement is crystalising a cosmic view based on Universal Darwinism, Defining atheists as a social and political group, scientism, and evangelical atheism, a fundamental antitheism, the moral imperatives of the New atheism.

I agree that most think he is a crap philosopher.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 10:59:53 AM by The Good, The Vlad and the Ugly »

jeremyp

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2017, 11:04:17 AM »
I don't have an obsession with him.
I am interested in movers and shakers in the history of religion...and Richard Dawkins holds an important place in the stealth religion phenomenon which is New Atheism..
It's a stealth religion because no matter how hard you look at it, the religion is still undetectable.
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jeremyp

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2017, 11:08:21 AM »
Dawkins is a very important scientist,
No he isn't. His fame rests on the fact that he is a very good science communicator.

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but a pretty crap philosopher.
And I'm  a crappy football player. But I don't claim to be a footballer and Dawkins doesn't claim to be a philosopher.

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Like C.S.Lewis, who was a third-rate theologian although a great literary critic and historian, he should never have strayed beyond his speciality.
So we wouldn't have the Narnia books.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2017, 11:37:05 AM »
It's a stealth religion because no matter how hard you look at it, the religion is still undetectable.
What's missing is God, but he is absent from Buddhism. The rest is all there then, The evangelism, The zeal, the charismatic prophet, The sacred Texts, Good and evil, sense of mission, substitute for those aspects of life taken up by religion.

Check this out: It is an atheist evolutionary biologist critique of New Atheism.

https://evolution-institute.org/article/the-new-atheism-as-a-stealth-religion-five-years-later/
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 11:39:33 AM by The Good, The Vlad and the Ugly »

Shaker

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2017, 11:40:06 AM »
So we wouldn't have the Narnia books.
No loss.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2017, 11:43:28 AM »

And I'm  a crappy football player. But I don't claim to be a footballer and Dawkins doesn't claim to be a philosopher.


But Jeremy, we never see you on TV running onto the pitch trying to crash a Premier league match or popping up in the team as the camera scans the players during the National anthem, or claiming that you don't have to know about the offside rule because it's patent rubbish.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2017, 12:34:13 PM »
What's missing is God, but he is absent from Buddhism. The rest is all there then, The evangelism, The zeal, the charismatic prophet, The sacred Texts, Good and evil, sense of mission, substitute for those aspects of life taken up by religion.

Check this out: It is an atheist evolutionary biologist critique of New Atheism.

https://evolution-institute.org/article/the-new-atheism-as-a-stealth-religion-five-years-later/
No mention of antitheists, you must be so disappointed.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2017, 03:52:24 PM »
No mention of antitheists, you must be so disappointed.

Have to say, I rather liked the article. One quote which may have some relevance to the subject of the thread is:

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Those who are following my Stealth blogs have been on the edge of their seats, waiting to know the true nature of religion (see Part III for details). It is a superorganism? A form of exploitation? A disease? Like a moth to flame? Like obesity? A roll of the dice? And the answer is…

ALL OF THE ABOVE!

He then goes on to say that he thinks that perhaps the most significant of these is is that religion is "a superorganism", which has 'secular utility' (remember Vlad saying that "Christianity works". However, Wilson's summary of the reasons why religion 'works' are rather broader than Vlad's).
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

ippy

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2017, 05:28:36 PM »
I reckon Richard Dawkins is better looking than Vlad and Vlad's having a job living with it.

I know all about this kind of thing and in all modesty, have to deal with this kind of jealousy every day.

ippy

jeremyp

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2017, 08:16:29 PM »
The rest is all there then, The evangelism, The zeal, the charismatic prophet,
What charismatic prophet? Artheists don't characterise Richard Dawkins as a prophet, people like you do when they set up their straw men.

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The sacred Texts

What sacred texts?

You've built a straw man version of atheism that has no bearing on reality, at least as not as the son called four horsemen are concerned.
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jeremyp

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #98 on: September 14, 2017, 08:38:09 PM »
or claiming that you don't have to know about the offside rule because it's patent rubbish.
I claim that, as somebody who does not play football, I do not need to know the offside rule. Why are you insisting that I should?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Why Christianity survived.
« Reply #99 on: September 14, 2017, 08:49:22 PM »
I reckon Richard Dawkins is better looking than Vlad and Vlad's having a job living with it.

I know all about this kind of thing and in all modesty, have to deal with this kind of jealousy every day.

ippy
Hmmmmm, Dawkin's Looks eh, well there is I suppose paleontological evidence there of him having once been a looker, but I can't decide whether it is evolution or plate tectonics which has left him with the expression of a slapped arse.