Catalonia independence vote

[Nearly Sane]

I have, as noted elsewhere, loved visiting Catalonia for years, and have a deep love of Barcelona as a city that feels to me twinned with my own beloved Glasgow in its chippy gallusness. Last year on Catalan national day I went to the gathering of 700,000 campaigning for independence. The attitude of the Spanish govt seems counterproductive to me, and the idea that they could oppose a vote were it to be a yes, foolish. That said, I think that any yes vote needs a substantial majority to be effective, certainly at least 55/45.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41177428

[Aruntraveller]

Whatever the merits of independence for Catalunya are - I cannot see Spain allowing it. The region is the main driver for Spain's economy. Were they to secede it would leave Spain significantly weakened both politically and economically. Spain's government will fight it all the way regardless of the wishes of the people of that region.

It could become very, very difficult. (And I think that may be an understatement)

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed, and here is the evidence.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41191327

[Nearly Sane]

Very worrying, also ballot papers being seized and mayors being asked to speak out against the referendum or be arrested.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41284764

[Anchorman]

Go for it, Catelonia!

[Udayana]

No. that's madness .. the effect would be chaotic. And not change the spelling either.

[Nearly Sane]

No. that's madness .. the effect would be chaotic. And not change the spelling either.

So you think Catalonia shouldn't vote for independence because Madrid wants to deny them the possibility to vote for  independence?

[Udayana]

No.

I don't think Catalonia should vote for independence, because they and everyone in the rest of Spain would end up worse off. Madrid should allow them to vote, if they don't, Catalonia should continue pressing its case within the existing constitution and legal system.

Why imply I have a view I didn't state?

[Nearly Sane]

No.

I don't think Catalonia should vote for independence, because they and everyone in the rest of Spain would end up worse off. Madrid should allow them to vote, if they don't, Catalonia should continue pressing its case within the existing constitution and legal system.

Why imply I have a view I didn't state?

I asked a question based on your statement, and the context in the thread.


Why do you think that would be worse off? Small countries can and do exist successfully.

[Udayana]

Nothing wrong with small countries, but how they fare depends on the political and economic environment they exist in. Given the history of conflicts within Spain I am not optimistic wrt. good relations.

This article by Alfons López Tena and Elisenda Paluzie considers the main scenarios.

My opinion (for what it's worth) is that they should pursue the accord reached after the 2006 referendum, pressing for constitutional and legal amendments.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Whatever the merits of independence for Catalunya are - I cannot see Spain allowing it. The region is the main driver for Spain's economy. Were they to secede it would leave Spain significantly weakened both politically and economically. Spain's government will fight it all the way regardless of the wishes of the people of that region.

It could become very, very difficult. (And I think that may be an understatement)

I agree. Catalonia can no more leave Spain than Bromley can leave Greater London.

We do it the civilised way. All the towns and villages within the borough have their own individual boundary signs, all of which contain the Horse of Kent. There is no reference to "London".

[Nearly Sane]

Nothing wrong with small countries, but how they fare depends on the political and economic environment they exist in. Given the history of conflicts within Spain I am not optimistic wrt. good relations.

This article by Alfons López Tena and Elisenda Paluzie considers the main scenarios.

My opinion (for what it's worth) is that they should pursue the accord reached after the 2006 referendum, pressing for constitutional and legal amendments.

Except the issue here is that the chaos choice is Spain's and the 2006 referendum is challenged by Spain. Don't get me wrong, I agree that the history causes real problems but that's why we are in this situation and why there are problems with your option, in that it was the challenges to 2006 that gave pushed the independence referendum.

Now with the attempted suppression of democracy by Spain, voting no to independence has become voting yes to that suppression. 

[Nearly Sane]

I agree. Catalonia can no more leave Spain than Bromley can leave Greater London.

We do it the civilised way. All the towns and villages within the borough have their own individual boundary signs, all of which contain the Horse of Kent. There is no reference to "London".

Mmm, I don't think Spain = London, Bromley = Catalonia is a valid 'analogy'.

[jeremyp]

Very worrying, also ballot papers being seized and mayors being asked to speak out against the referendum or be arrested.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41284764

Worrying that Catalonia is moving forward in defiance of Spain's constitutional court, you mean.

[Nearly Sane]

Worrying that Catalonia is moving forward in defiance of Spain's constitutional court, you mean.

No, it's an elected govt, and sending the police in and using the court here is deeply worrying.

[jeremyp]

No, it's an elected govt, and sending the police in and using the court here is deeply worrying.

But it is part of Spain and thus subject to the Spanish constitution and courts. They are moving ahead with this referendum in defiance of Spain's constitutional court. Why do you think that is not worrying?

[Nearly Sane]

But it is part of Spain and thus subject to the Spanish constitution and courts. They are moving ahead with this referendum in defiance of Spain's constitutional court. Why do you think that is not worrying?

I do think it is worrying. But the isse as I see it is Spain is signed up to self determination at an international level. Trying to deny that and democracy is more problematic to me.

[Udayana]

Except the issue here is that the chaos choice is Spain's and the 2006 referendum is challenged by Spain. Don't get me wrong, I agree that the history causes real problems but that's why we are in this situation and why there are problems with your option, in that it was the challenges to 2006 that gave pushed the independence referendum.

Now with the attempted suppression of democracy by Spain, voting no to independence has become voting yes to that suppression.

How can any vote in an illegal poll have any validity?

[Udayana]

I do think it is worrying. But the isse as I see it is Spain is signed up to self determination at an international level. Trying to deny that and democracy is more problematic to me.

It is a political and legal issue and the solution must be sought through the legal and political systems in place, including the EU institutions.

[Nearly Sane]

It is a political and legal issue and the solution must be sought through the legal and political systems in place, including the EU institutions.

And beyond since the self determination part is linked to Spain being in the UN. The shutting down of that by Spain is problematic and I think holding a ballot is not something that can be seen as anti democratic. I am sure you can imagine plenty of situations where following some laws would be problematic. 

[Nearly Sane]

How can any vote in an illegal poll have any validity?

How can an illegal restriction of a democratic vote have validity?  Your position seems to be that Rosa Parks was wrong to sit down where she did on the bus.

[Udayana]

hmm, argument by crap analogies again?

[Nearly Sane]

hmm, argument by crap analogies again?

No, it isn't an argument- it's trying to find out where you think the limits of believing that you should obey laws extends to. It's a use of the reductio to see if that's what you think - as I suspect you don't.

[Udayana]

Well, I don't have any grand philosophy about when laws should be obeyed or not, but a more pragmatic approach.

If you have good access to the legislative and judicial systems put in place by a reasonably fair and democratic state, you should continue to use them. If you don't have these and are suffering an intolerable denial of human rights, by all means break the laws if you think it will help your cause.

The whole heroism of Rosa Parks action was that it sparked a demonstration that finally led to a number of similar cases to actually be considered in court, and leading to subsequent reform.

If you think the UN principle of self determination can be used to obtain Catalonian secession outside of EU Court rulings - success is very unlikely even if the opposing parties were to escalate to the use of violence.

[Outrider]

And beyond since the self determination part is linked to Spain being in the UN. The shutting down of that by Spain is problematic and I think holding a ballot is not something that can be seen as anti democratic. I am sure you can imagine plenty of situations where following some laws would be problematic.

Whilst I get your general gist, I think the UN's stance on 'self-determination' is for former colonies that seek independence, not what might be considered integral territories of the country itself. Of course, at what point you draw the line and say 'this is the country, this is a dependent territory' colours that distinction.

Spain's 'stick their head in the sand' attempt to pretend the opinion isn't there is just fomenting the discord, they need to deal with the issues; this stifling of expression is just going to ramp up tensions.

O.