Catalonia independence vote

[Udayana]

Both sides are digging as hard as they can and will probably get sucked into a sink hole 

[Nearly Sane]

Both sides are digging as hard as they can and will probably get sucked into a sink hole 

Given the history, it's not easy to see that calling for a vote after elections, is equivalent to refusing to recognise that. I am fearful for what may happen, and part of me understands your position but I also think that arguing there is a simple equivalence here is both anti democratic and a simplistic pragmatism that would doom progress.

[Udayana]

My position is just that what is needed is negotiation and constitutional reform, not symbolic votes that can't count.

If they held the referendum and had a 100% "leave" vote - what would that achieve? - Just demonstrate that no one that wanted to remain as part of Spain felt they could take part in the vote. Referendum results can't count if it is unconstitutional or illegal (as has already been found by the constitutional court).

I fear that the Catalonian governing coalition (can't remember what they are now called- CEDP?) are playing this for populist political reasons without caring where it ends up.

[Nearly Sane]

My position is just that what is needed is negotiation and constitutional reform, not symbolic votes that can't count.

If they held the referendum and had a 100% "leave" vote - what would that achieve? - Just demonstrate that no one that wanted to remain as part of Spain felt they could take part in the vote. Referendum results can't count if it is unconstitutional or illegal (as has already been found by the constitutional court).

I fear that the Catalonian governing coalition (can't remember what they are now called- CEDP?) are playing this for populist political reasons without caring where it ends up.

Aren't populist political reasons called democracy?

[Udayana]

hmm . not really .. worth contrasting with Burma/Myanamar?

[Nearly Sane]

hmm . not really .. worth contrasting with Burma/Myanamar?

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here.

[Udayana]

Any dictator can whip up a populist cause to boost their own power without a whiff of democracy getting in.

[Nearly Sane]

Any dictator can whip up a populist cause to boost their own power without a whiff of democracy getting in.

So who is the dictator in Catalonia?

[Udayana]

No dictator - just that populist is not equivalent to democratic.

[Nearly Sane]

No dictator - just that populist is not equivalent to democratic.

So what is a political party in a democracy to do that if they are popular means you can dismiss them, as you did, for being populist?

[Udayana]

So what is a political party in a democracy to do that if they are popular means you can dismiss them, as you did, for being populist?

Sorry,I don't know what you mean. I didn't dismiss anyone for being populist.

The pro independence coalition has political power, but did not have a pro independence majority in the populace. They must responsibly govern the region and negotiate with Madrid to arrange for another referendum or accord to achieve their aims of further autonomy. Instead of that, they have decided to have a head on confrontation with Madrid, thinking this will boost support for independence in Catalonia, with no care for the long term fallout. 

[Nearly Sane]

Sorry,I don't know what you mean. I didn't dismiss anyone for being populist.

The pro independence coalition has political power, but did not have a pro independence majority in the populace. They must responsibly govern the region and negotiate with Madrid to arrange for another referendum or accord to achieve their aims of further autonomy. Instead of that, they have decided to have a head on confrontation with Madrid, thinking this will boost support for independence in Catalonia, with no care for the long term fallout.

You talked about following populism dismissively. And I am hugely confused here, how do you (a) know they didn't have an independence majority in the populace, and (b) then argue they are being populist by seeking a vote?

Isn't responsibly governing doing what your manifesto says rather than following someone on a message board?

[Udayana]

There was a referendum last year (or possibly the year before - memory escapes me) with a majority against secession. They cannot claim there was a majority for independence as the coalition itself had no manifesto, but is a post election grouping of different parties.

If they were elected on a "declare independence" platform they would not need another referendum. They do not need a head on clash with Madrid to forward the wishes of the Catalonian people.

I very much doubt there is, and would strongly advise against, anyone following this message board to decide anything about anything!       

[Nearly Sane]

There was a referendum last year (or possibly the year before - memory escapes me) with a majority against secession. They cannot claim there was a majority for independence as the coalition itself had no manifesto, but is a post election grouping of different parties.

If they were elected on a "declare independence" platform they would not need another referendum. They do not need a head on clash with Madrid to forward the wishes of the Catalonian people.

I very much doubt there is, and would strongly advise against, anyone following this message board to decide anything about anything!       

Err no there was a referendum which was non official which the no side 'boycotted' which was 80% yes for indeoendence. And of course the Catalan govt was electecon a hold referendum promise, not declare independence. 

[Udayana]

Err no there was a referendum which was non official which the no side 'boycotted' which was 80% yes for indeoendence. And of course the Catalan govt was electecon a hold referendum promise, not declare independence.

Ah yes , that's right. It was 2014 .. as the turnout was low, about 48%, probably because of the "No" side boycott, generally this was taken as a "No" vote.

In any case, if they want more autonomy or independence they need a legal and official poll. You don't get that by holding one that has already been found to be not legal. As their policy is to have a referendum they need to get changes to the Spanish constitution and laws. What use a repeat of the 2014 outcome?

[Nearly Sane]

Ah yes , that's right. It was 2014 .. as the turnout was low, about 48%, probably because of the "No" side boycott, generally this was taken as a "No" vote.

In any case, if they want more autonomy or independence they need a legal and official poll. You don't get that by holding one that has already been found to be not legal. As their policy is to have a referendum they need to get changes to the Spanish constitution and laws. What use a repeat of the 2014 outcome?

No, it wasn't generally taken as a no vote.

It's already not a repeat of the 2014 referendum because of the actions of the Spanish. The arresting of peopke for attempting to hold a vote shows that it is being treated differently.

[Nearly Sane]

From what I am hearing the Spanish Attorney General is filing a petition that those protesting in support of the referendum are participating in sedition.





If get confirmation will post.


Can't believe how under reported this is.

[Nearly Sane]

And Madrid taking control of Catalan police



http://catalannews.com/news/item/spain-takes-control-of-catalan-police

[jeremyp]

How can an illegal restriction of a democratic vote have validity?  Your position seems to be that Rosa Parks was wrong to sit down where she did on the bus.

The dispute is that the Catalonia vote might be unconstitutional. The ban applies only until the courts have decided that it is constitutional (or forever, if they decide it is not).

What part of the US constitution banned Rosa Parks from sitting where she liked?

[jeremyp]

Aren't populist political reasons called democracy?

No, they are called mob rule.

[Nearly Sane]

Neal Ascherson on Catalonia.




https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/23/catalans-not-alone-across-the-world-people-yearn-to-govern-themselves

[Udayana]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41439787

Tractors roll into Barcelona to support vote.

Just to recap on the rules of the referendum:

• Simple overall majority
• No minimum turnout
• Unilateral declaration of independence within 48 hours of a yes vote
• Still possible to negotiate a political solution on the night of the vote

[Nearly Sane]

As ever with such votes, I would like it to have something more than a simple majority for change.

[Nearly Sane]

One take on the situation



https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/only-catalans-can-set-the-ne-plus-ultra-to-their-independence-aspirations-1.3238294

[Nearly Sane]

And from the UN High Commission in Human Rights

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22176&LangID=E