Catalonia independence vote

[jeremyp]

Given that this is a thread about Catalonian independence you seem somehow to be missing the (fairly central) point that many Catalonians don't want a Spanish government but a Catalonian one.

I want a Ferrari, but it turns out you can't just have what you want. Also the dream and the reality often turn out not to be the same. If I got a Ferrari I'd probably find it too impractical to keep.

Spain is already a democracy. Nothing would be achieved by seceding from Spain except masses of bureaucracy and squabbling and eventual ejection from the EU. Catalonia has been a part of Spain for longer than Scotland has been part of the UK and definitely longer than the UK has been part of the /eu and look how swimmingly that is going.

Now they've illegally declared independence, I really can't see this ending well.

[Aruntraveller]

Given that this is a thread about Catalonian independence you seem somehow to be missing the (fairly central) point that many Catalonians don't want a Spanish government but a Catalonian one.

And you seem to be deliberately ignoring the fact that many Catalonians didn't vote because they were told by their democratically elected government that it was an illegal referendum,  and the "many" you quote might actually be a minority - although we have no certainty about this until a proper referendum is conducted. In these circumstances I cannot see how anyone can cite this referendum as being legitimate. And as you have pointed out elsewhere on referenda it is the majority view that should take precedence as it is 'democracy' in action - no matter the means by which that democracy has been informed.

[wigginhall]

One of the problems is that the Spanish constitution forbids secession, and seems to forbid any referendum about secession.   Hence, illegality seems the only route for indy supporters, unless they are able to do a deal with Madrid.  Unlikely at the moment.

[Nearly Sane]

In order to do this justice now would take a huge post which I don't have time for. Just like to point out that Jeremyp's point about Catalonia being part of Spain for longer than Scotland is extremely questionable given it's really only the war of the Spanish Succesion that the are became part of Spain and that was by conquest, and that's without the very different nature of nation states at the time. Further that it is less than 80 years since the areas was fighting for autonymy and was again militarily subdued and then had rights oppressed for 40 years makes it very different to Scotland. It's easy for people on both sides of the argument to extend the analogy with Scotland or other places seeking or having achieved independence 

[Udayana]

One of the problems is that the Spanish constitution forbids secession, and seems to forbid any referendum about secession.   Hence, illegality seems the only route for indy supporters, unless they are able to do a deal with Madrid.  Unlikely at the moment.

They can have a new election, where independence is the defining issue.

[Nearly Sane]

They can have a new election, where independence is the defining issue.

They had an election where that was in the manifesto. That's how we got here.

[wigginhall]

Yes, that's how Puigdemont became president of the Catalan government.   If Spain forbids secession, they are going round in circles, and I don't think the Catalan movement has enough forces to push it through.

An odd side issue is that talking to people I know there, plenty of people on the left are against independence, and I think Puigdemont is sort of centre right.    But then nationalism crosses the left/right spectrum.   There is also a more hard left movement which does support independence. 

[Udayana]

Yes, that's how Puigdemont became president of the Catalan government.   If Spain forbids secession, they are going round in circles, and I don't think the Catalan movement has enough forces to push it through.

Not really..

If there had been a mandate for independence, Puigdemont would not have provoked Madrid with an illegal referendum, and could have declared at that point.

The Spanish government (whoever is in power) can't decide these things on a whim... they have to follow the law and constitution. If Catalonia is to become independent peacefully then the constitution has to change.
Unfortunately for those wanting independence the Madrid conservatives have gained politically by contesting or blocking such changes. They need to persuade the Spanish people that they have a workable proposition.

An odd side issue is that talking to people I know there, plenty of people on the left are against independence, and I think Puigdemont is sort of centre right.    But then nationalism crosses the left/right spectrum.   There is also a more hard left movement which does support independence.

[wigginhall]

Well, if you are trying to persuade Madrid to change the constitution, so as to allow secession, you are in a for a long haul.  It reminds me of Irish Home Rule, which was discussed for decades.   In the end, Irish people cut the Gordian knot. 

Doing it legally is very difficult.   The Belgians went in for strikes, street riots, occupation of public buildings, desertion of troops, the famous 'night at the opera', and so on.   Different times, of course, (1830).

[ekim]

Here's a potted history of the relationship between the two....... http://tinyurl.com/y8opo65j

[SweetPea]

Thanks, Ekim, I've just started reading George Orwell's 'Homage to Catalonia' that can be found as a pdf online. This is Orwell's 1938 account of the Spanish Revolution and Civil War, from his point of view as a volunteer in the POUM militia.                                                   

[jeremyp]

In order to do this justice now would take a huge post which I don't have time for. Just like to point out that Jeremyp's point about Catalonia being part of Spain for longer than Scotland is extremely questionable given it's really only the war of the Spanish Succesion that the are became part of Spain and that was by conquest, and that's without the very different nature of nation states at the time. Further that it is less than 80 years since the areas was fighting for autonymy and was again militarily subdued and then had rights oppressed for 40 years makes it very different to Scotland. It's easy for people on both sides of the argument to extend the analogy with Scotland or other places seeking or having achieved independence

Yeah, no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Spain

Catalonia has been part of Spain since at least the 17th century.

[Nearly Sane]

Yeah, no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Spain

Catalonia has been part of Spain since at least the 17th century.

As per your link what happened in 1516 was a unification of crowns similar to what happened in 1603 in Britain. The crown of Aragones, where the Principality of Catalonia was, continued to 1716 as a separate entity in an almost federated manner with its own institutions. The defeat of the Catalan Army in the siege of Barcelona on 11 September 1714 can probably be taken as its end. This is why Catalan National Day is 11th September, marking for reasons I have always found odd, a significant defeat. However, 1716 is seen as the equivalent to the 1707 Act of Union.

[Nearly Sane]

Leaving the 16th to 18th century discussions in the past for a while, tbis latest approach from Spain will obviously calm things down....


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41802900

[Nearly Sane]

Looks like Puigdemont and other members of the govt may be seeking political asylum in Belgium!!!

[Shaker]

Looks like Puigdemont and other members of the govt may be seeking political asylum in Belgium!!!

Or not: http://tinyurl.com/y93fy838

[Nearly Sane]

Meanwhile

http://catalannews.com/politics/item/eight-deposed-catalan-ministers-sent-to-prison-without-bail

[Nearly Sane]

And now request received by Spanish Prosecutor to outlaw the pro independence parties.

[Nearly Sane]

Court in Belgium on 17th


http://m.france24.com/en/20171106-spain-belgium-catalonia-sacked-catalan-leader-puigdemont-due-court-november-17?ref=fb

[Nearly Sane]

If this were to be happening in the run up to an election in some Sth American country there would be uproar about the election about to be held as not being free and fair.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42221657

[Nearly Sane]

This is some good news, at least.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42237377

[floo]

Good, they should never have been issued in the first place.

[jeremyp]

Good, they should never have been issued in the first place.

I agree that the optics are bad, but I don't think there was anything improper about the warrants. The people for whom they were issued may well have broken the law.

[Nearly Sane]

I agree that the optics are bad, but I don't think there was anything improper about the warrants. The people for whom they were issued may well have broken the law.

And the warrants may well be suppressing democracy which could be against EU law.

[jeremyp]

And the warrants may well be suppressing democracy which could be against EU law.

How so?