Catalonia independence vote

[Nearly Sane]

How so?

Obviously this is Puigdemont's argument but it seems at least to have some value.

[Nearly Sane]

Let's hope not


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/10/catalonia-braced-violence-judge-orders-seizure-disputed-religious/

[jeremyp]

Obviously this is Puigdemont's argument but it seems at least to have some value.

What is his argument?

I was asking you how the warrants are suppressing democracy. You still haven't answered.

[Nearly Sane]

What is his argument?

I was asking you how the warrants are suppressing democracy. You still haven't answered.

It was a missed link


See below

http://catalannews.com/politics/item/spain-has-withdrawn-the-arrest-warrant-out-of-fear-puigdemont-says

[jeremyp]

It was a missed link


See below

http://catalannews.com/politics/item/spain-has-withdrawn-the-arrest-warrant-out-of-fear-puigdemont-says

The link doesn't answer my question. It merely reports the opinion of one of the arrestees, which is likely to be biased. You were the one who claimed that the warrants may well be suppressing democracy. What is your argument.

[Nearly Sane]

The link doesn't answer my question. It merely reports the opinion of one of the arrestees, which is likely to be biased. You were the one who claimed that the warrants may well be suppressing democracy. What is your argument.

Just because someone's opinion may be biased doesn't make their position wrong, that would just be you using the ad hominem fallacy to dismiss the arguments.   I think Puigdemont's position has some value, as already stated.

[jeremyp]

Just because someone's opinion may be biased doesn't make their position wrong,

No it doesn't. But you are refusing to tell me why your position is right. I am calling you out, not Puigdemont.

You tell me in your own words why I should believe your assertion that the EAW's suppresses democracy.

I think Puigdemont's position has some value, as already stated.

Why do you think it has some value?

By the way, ad hominem is a fallacy that applies when you dismiss an argument because of who the person is that makes the argument. If I dispute an unsubstantiated statement because of who the person is that makes the statement, it is not ad hominem. Puigdemont has made a statement but not an argument as far as I can see. If you can articulate the argument he makes, all well and good.

[Nearly Sane]

So why mention his bias if you agree it's irrelevant here? The argument itself is a fairly simple one covered by Puigdemont's  vomnentd. If the warrants are used for political purpises then their possible illegality is based on a supression of demicracy, hence the legal idea that they shouldn't be for political purposes.

[jeremyp]

So why mention his bias if you agree it's irrelevant here?

Because other people don't seem to agree that it is irrelevant.

The argument itself is a fairly simple one covered by Puigdemont's  vomnentd. If the warrants are used for political purpises then their possible illegality is based on a supression of demicracy, hence the legal idea that they shouldn't be for political purposes.

The assumption there is that the warrants are being used for political purposes. I do not see any evidence that that is the case.

[Nearly Sane]

Because other people don't seem to agree that it is irrelevant.
The assumption there is that the warrants are being used for political purposes. I do not see any evidence that that is the case.

So if other people think the colour of his skin is relevant - that is an argument for it? Are they biased? You seem confused.


As to whether it's an good  argument against it. Don't know but you seem to be saying that your opinion is an argument and Puigdemonts isn't.

[jeremyp]

So if other people think the colour of his skin is relevant - that is an argument for it? Are they biased? You seem confused.


As to whether it's an good  argument against it. Don't know but you seem to be saying that your opinion is an argument and Puigdemonts isn't.

I'm not the one making a claim here. I simply note that he has been accused of committing a crime and warrants have been issued to make him go back to Spain to answer the accusations. Puigedemont is the one who claims that they are illegal. His argument for why (as articulated by you here) is "if the warrants are used for political purposes then their possible illegality is based on a supression of democracy". The argument rests on the premise "the warrants are used for political purposes".  I see two problems with that argument

1. the assumption that a warrant issued for political purposes is necessarily a suppression of democracy is not proven

2. the premise "the warrants are being used for political purposes" is not proven.



 

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not the one making a claim here. I simply note that he has been accused of committing a crime and warrants have been issued to make him go back to Spain to answer the accusations. Puigedemont is the one who claims that they are illegal. His argument for why (as articulated by you here) is "if the warrants are used for political purposes then their possible illegality is based on a supression of democracy". The argument rests on the premise "the warrants are used for political purposes".  I see two problems with that argument

1. the assumption that a warrant issued for political purposes is necessarily a suppression of democracy is not proven

2. the premise "the warrants are being used for political purposes" is not proven.

didn't say it was proven- just that it was arguable

[Nearly Sane]

The report doesn't seem to cover those parties that while not being pro independence are pro referendum which could be significant.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42435684

[Nearly Sane]

And it would appear that the snap election even with a high turnout has solved precisely nothing. A majority for the independence parties in seats but not votes, and with the prospect that they may struggle to work together. Ciudanos as unionists become the largest party but the PP of Rajoy collapse. Of those parties regarded as pro v anti independence the vote was 47.5 to 42.5. Both sides need to negotiatiate honestly.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/21/catalonia-election-set-to-give-victory-to-pro-independence-parties

[Nearly Sane]

With this and Rajoy's statement that he will talk only at the moment to the leader of Ciudanos, marginally the largest party but with no apparent chance of being in the government, the problems and a basic lack of honesty in approach continues. And of course Guardiola gets named in a police report



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/23/catalonia-peace-stall-arrests-tensions-judiciary



http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/catalonia-referendum-election-pep-guardiola-manchester-city-investigation-spanish-police-support-a8123906.html

[Nearly Sane]

Or in my view whitewashes the anti democratic actions of the Spanish govt.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/25/spains-king-attempts-to-calm-catalonia-crisis-in-christmas-speech

[jeremyp]

Or in my view whitewashes the anti democratic actions of the Spanish govt.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/25/spains-king-attempts-to-calm-catalonia-crisis-in-christmas-speech

The Spanish government is trying to uphold the law and constitution of Spain. Yes, they are doing it in a very ham fisted way, but I don't see how they are being undemocratic.

[Harrowby Hall]

NS, if the Mayor London organised a referendum in all the boroughs of Greater London, and the result was that the majority of voters supported the proposal that Greater London should leave the United Kingdom, would you support the majority decision?

[Nearly Sane]

NS, if the Mayor London organised a referendum in all the boroughs of Greater London, and the result was that the majority of voters supported the proposal that Greater London should leave the United Kingdom, would you support the majority decision?

Not quite sure where even with the false equivalence you could get that from my position this thread. Let's deal with the false equivalence first. The mayor of London is a single elected official whereas the Catalan govt have now had three elections where pro independence parties have been elected on manifestos to hold referendums (not a single in campaigned for action as covered in your post). Now even with that I don't think that any referendum on such change should be a simple majority and I don't think in this situation that either of the polls held are valid.


However, what I do believe is that imprisoning people for carrying out manifesto commitments such as holding a referendum is at base anti Democratic, and even if it is against Spanish law, that law  is arguably against the international law they are signed up to in the EU and UN. I think it is antidemocratic to send in police to beat up pensioners who were not as individuals breaking any law. I think it is antidemocratic to state that you will hold no talks with the elected govt ever. I think it is antidemocratic to put a leader of the independence movement for campaigning in a phone call in prison during this latest election. I think it is anti democratic for Guardiola to be named in police reports for expressing an opinion.

[Harrowby Hall]

The fact that, on a number of occasions and in a variety of circumstances, the agents of the Spanish state have behaved appallingly. I am disgusted by the behaviour of the Spanish police and the judiciary in their reactions to events in Catalonia. However, although such behaviour gives credence to the wishes of Catalonians, it does not give legitimacy.

I was asking you for your opinion on a single aspect of constitutionality. not for a smokescreen of indignation.

[Nearly Sane]

The fact that, on a number of occasions and in a variety of circumstances, the agents of the Spanish state have behaved appallingly. I am disgusted by the behaviour of the Spanish police and the judiciary in their reactions to events in Catalonia. However, although such behaviour gives credence to the wishes of Catalonians, it does not give legitimacy.

I was asking you for your opinion on a single aspect of constitutionality. not for a smokescreen of indignation.

I provided that as well covering both the false equivalence and why ignoring that I still wouldn't support it being a vote for independence. It's in the first para of my reply.

[jeremyp]

However, what I do believe is that imprisoning people for carrying out manifesto commitments such as holding a referendum is at base anti Democratic

It's not anti-democratic if the manifesto pledge is against the law.

and even if it is against Spanish law, that law  is arguably against the international law they are signed up to in the EU and UN.

Citation needed.

I think it is antidemocratic to send in police to beat up pensioners who were not as individuals breaking any law.

That is true. Which pensioners was it?

I think it is antidemocratic to state that you will hold no talks with the elected govt ever.

What if it was in the manifesto of Spain's governing party not to countenance independence for Catalonia? Wouldn't it be undemocratic to ignore that pledge?

[jeremyp]

I provided that as well covering both the false equivalence

OK. Suppose three London mayors in a row were elected based on a commitment to make London independent.  Now answer the question.

[Nearly Sane]

OK. Suppose three London mayors in a row were elected based on a commitment to make London independent.  Now answer the question.

Again it was answered. I covered both the false equivalence abd what my position would be even if you didn't continue the false equivalence as you did here. Suggest you reread.

[Nearly Sane]

It's not anti-democratic if the manifesto pledge is against the law.

Sorry, that's philosophical gibberish as it makes support for women's suffrage bad if it's against the law.

Citation needed.

For an argument? You seem a bit confused. For the EU we have already covered this with Puigdemont's position. For the UN see the Declaration on Human Rights on self determination - there's a post earlier on the thread covering the argument.

That is true. Which pensioners was it?

Was it what?

What if it was in the manifesto of Spain's governing party not to countenance independence for Catalonia? Wouldn't it be undemocratic to ignore that pledge?

Yep, because if a govt elected on male suffrage to deny women voting would be anti democratic.