Author Topic: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps  (Read 15753 times)

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2017, 12:05:31 PM »
Vlad the Irrelevantist,

Quote
Stop dodging the phrase that flags up your appeal to ridicule Hillside.......

Leprechauns vs Multiverse.

Oh....Do you have a dilemma here, having told all and sundry that differences are irrelevant?

Leprechauns and Dark Matter.
leprechauns and Dark energy.
Leprechauns and The universe appearing from Nothing.
Leprechauns and an eternal universe.
leprechauns and the Aristotelian God.
Leprechauns and string theory.
leprechauns and what Sean Carroll does for a living.

You were asked to engage with the argument that undoes you. You blew it.

What your latest eructation is even trying to argue moreover is unfathomable - presumably it seemed relevant in your head at least though?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2017, 12:07:42 PM »
Vlad the Mendacious,

Quote
But in your case you have start with ridicule.

Stop lying. The point starts with the argument. That one outcome is more commonly held to be ridiculous than the other comes later.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11078
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2017, 12:08:49 PM »
But in your case you have start with ridicule.

Evidence for that unfounded assertion would be?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2017, 12:45:04 PM »
Trent,

Quote
Evidence for that unfounded assertion would be?

Evidence? Vlad?

I admire your optimism at least.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2017, 01:11:51 PM »
Evidence for that unfounded assertion would be?
Support of the whole New Atheist Leprechaun and God schtick of course. Which is
appeal to ridicule.

What other ridicule are you involved with?

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11078
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2017, 01:20:43 PM »
Support of the whole New Atheist Leprechaun and God schtick of course. Which is
appeal to ridicule.

What other ridicule are you involved with?

Again I'm not involved in ridicule in this instance. You have defined it as ridicule. What other ridicule I am involved in need not bother you.

I thought the explanation BHS put forward was clear and reasonable. Clearly you don't. I don't understand why you don't and I suspect I never will.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2017, 02:08:50 PM »
Again I'm not involved in ridicule in this instance. You have defined it as ridicule. What other ridicule I am involved in need not bother you.

I thought the explanation BHS put forward was clear and reasonable. Clearly you don't. I don't understand why you don't and I suspect I never will.
Even a statement such as an argument for God which could fit Leprechauns is IMHO knocking on the door of the fallacy of appeal to emotion. Particularly it's continual use.

Can we agree that instead of Leprechauns we use the phrase ''String theory''?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2017, 04:33:40 PM »
Vlad the Irrelevantist,

Quote
Support of the whole New Atheist Leprechaun and God schtick of course. Which is appeal to ridicule.

No it isn't for the reasons that have been explained to you at length, but that you just ignore. The primary point is that when an argument leads equally to different faith-based conjectures you have no choice but to accept the same argument for all of them or to reject it for all of them. There's no magic formula after the fact that validates the argument for one conjecture but not for another. That you happen to find one of them more ridiculous than the other is helpful to the point but a secondary matter.   

Quote
Even a statement such as an argument for God which could fit Leprechauns is IMHO knocking on the door of the fallacy of appeal to emotion. Particularly it's continual use.

Wrong again - it's just simple logic, albeit logic with which you fail to engage in favour of various diversionary tactics.

Quote
Can we agree that instead of Leprechauns we use the phrase ''String theory''?

No we can't, because string theory isn't a faith-based claim of fact. String theory has supporting logic that isn't fallacious, albeit is that the full theory does not have a satisfactory definition in all circumstances. "God", leprechauns and the like on the other hand are faith-based conjectures. That's why, when the same argument is attempted and "works" for each, the analogy works.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 04:39:43 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2017, 05:00:57 PM »
Vlad the Irrelevantist,

No it isn't for the reasons that have been explained to you at length, but that you just ignore. The primary point is that when an argument leads equally to different faith-based conjectures you have no choice but to accept the same argument for all of them or to reject it for all of them. There's no magic formula after the fact that validates the argument for one conjecture but not for another. That you happen to find one of them more ridiculous than the other is helpful to the point but a secondary matter.   

Wrong again - it's just simple logic, albeit logic with which you fail to engage in favour of various diversionary tactics.

No we can't, because string theory isn't a faith-based claim of fact.
The sound of barrels being scraped. And neither does God have to be, or Leprechauns for that matter. So you have fallen flat again.
No it looks a lot like appeal to emotion Hillside.......Leprechauns and snigger......Dark matter, or multiverse, or string theory does not have the same emotive appeal.

You spent this morning talking about irrelevences only to introduce one yourself ,which through magical thinking becomes relevant. You seem to be all over the shop.


At the end of the day you are really specially pleading Leprechauns.....I think you hate them.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2017, 05:13:09 PM »
Vlad the Irrationalist,

Quote
The sound of barrels being scraped.

By the bullets as they head for both your feet presumably?

Quote
And neither does God have to be, or Leprechauns for that matter. So you have fallen flat again.

Well, they’re words all right. Yup, definitely words.

Now all you have to do is to work out how to string them into a coherent sentence. Good luck with it though.

Quote
No it looks a lot like appeal to emotion Hillside.......Leprechauns and snigger......Dark matter, or multiverse, or string theory does not have the same emotive appeal.

Presumably because you cannot or will not grasp the simple logic that’s actually involved. I’ve explained it to you several times now – if it’s too hard for you or your pathological dishonesty means you can’t engage with it though, then so be it.

Quote
You spent this morning talking about irrelevences only to introduce one yourself ,which through magical thinking becomes relevant. You seem to be all over the shop.

So all you have to do now is tell us what you think that irrelevance to be. It’s trivially easy to do with all your references to the different characteristics of gods and leprechauns, but your usual tactic of asserting with nothing to support your assertions lets you down again here.

Quote
At the end of the day you are really specially pleading Leprechauns.....I think you hate them.

Why do you think lying again helps you here?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2017, 05:14:14 PM »
Trent,

Quote
I thought the explanation BHS put forward was clear and reasonable. Clearly you don't. I don't understand why you don't and I suspect I never will.

If it's any consolation, nor does he.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2017, 05:18:55 PM »
Vlad the Irrationalist,

By the bullets as they head for both your feet presumably?

Well, they’re words all right. Yup, definitely words.

Now all you have to do is to work out how to string them into a coherent sentence. Good luck with it though.

Presumably because you cannot or will not grasp the simple logic that’s actually involved. I’ve explained it to you several times now – if it’s too hard for you or your pathological dishonesty means you can’t engage with it though, then so be it.

So all you have to do now is tell us what you think that irrelevance to be. It’s trivially easy to do with all your references to the different characteristics of gods and leprechauns, but your usual tactic of asserting with nothing to support your assertions lets you down again here.

Why do you think lying again helps you here?
Hillside when are you going to acknowledge that if an argument for the multiverse works equally for Leprechauns then it is a bad argument?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2017, 05:37:14 PM »
Vlad the Irrelevantist,

Quote
Hillside when are you going to acknowledge that if an argument for the multiverse works equally for Leprechauns then it is a bad argument?

If an argument for anything works equally for leprechauns then it's probably a bad argument.

When are you finally going to engage with the argument that I've set out several times here that undoes you?

"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2017, 05:41:39 PM »
Vlad the Irrelevantist,

If an argument for anything works equally for leprechauns then it's probably a bad argument.

When are you finally going to engage with the argument that I've set out several times here that undoes you?
Which argument is that?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2017, 05:51:32 PM »
Vlad the Disingenuinist,

Quote
Which argument is that?

I listed several of them back in Reply 33. That you ignored them in favour of a further diversionary tactic is your problem, not mine.

Look, as ever what's happened here is that you've crashed and burned in a welter of insult, irrelevance and incomprehensibility. Game over.

In the vanishingly unlikely event though that you do want to attempt at least finally to engage with the argument that undoes you, then by all means give it a go. If not, there's little point in responding to more of your white noise.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2017, 06:08:00 PM »
Vlad the Disingenuinist,

I listed several of them back in Reply 33.
Oh these .......
 “You can’t disprove god/leprechauns, therefore god/leprechauns (the NPF);.....I'm not making that argument and never have conclusively.
 “Other people agree with me about god/leprechauns” (argumentum ad populum) I'm more Other people claim to have encountered God. I don't know anyone seriously claiming an encounter with Leprechauns.
; “I don’t like the idea of no god/leprechauns (argumentum ad consequentiam);Not true for Augustine, St Paul, John Bunyan, HAV Williams or me at various times.
What's different between that and I don't like the idea of God which is going around these parts.

 “I prayed to god/leprechauns for a promotion and got the job, therefore god/leprechauns” (post hoc ergo propter hoc); Whodundat?
 “I know god/leprechauns exist because it says so in a book, god/leprechauns wrote the book (circular reasoning) Never argued that Pal.

Looks like a lot of straw men to me Hillside.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2017, 06:33:37 PM »
Vlad the Solipsist,

Quote
Oh these .......
 “You can’t disprove god/leprechauns, therefore god/leprechauns (the NPF);.....I'm not making that argument and never have conclusively.
 “Other people agree with me about god/leprechauns” (argumentum ad populum) I'm more Other people claim to have encountered God. I don't know anyone seriously claiming an encounter with Leprechauns.
; “I don’t like the idea of no god/leprechauns (argumentum ad consequentiam);Not true for Augustine, St Paul, John Bunyan, HAV Williams or me at various times.
What's different between that and I don't like the idea of God which is going around these parts.

 “I prayed to god/leprechauns for a promotion and got the job, therefore god/leprechauns” (post hoc ergo propter hoc); Whodundat?
 “I know god/leprechauns exist because it says so in a book, god/leprechauns wrote the book (circular reasoning) Never argued that Pal.

Looks like a lot of straw men to me Hillside.

You do know that not everything is about you right?

Here it is again: WHEN AN ARGUMENT FOR GOD WORKS JUST AS WELL FOR LEPRECHAUNS, THEN IT’S PROBABLY A BAD ARGUMENT.

If you've now shifted ground to, "OK I agree with that after all but it's not what I do" that's a second order issue and at least we'll have agreed the basic principle. 

As to the subsidiary issue of the extent to which you personally have attempted these arguments, while it's true that you have no others (which is why you always run away when asked for some) for the most part your preference is to lie and dissemble rather than rely on logical fallacies, though over the years you've attempted most of them with varying degrees of conviction (plus a few more all of your own invention). If you seriously think though that you do have a cogent argument for a "true for you too" god that you've kept secret up to now, by all means give it a go.

Why so coy?   
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 07:40:32 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2017, 12:05:37 PM »


Here it is again: WHEN AN ARGUMENT FOR GOD WORKS JUST AS WELL FOR LEPRECHAUNS, THEN IT’S PROBABLY A BAD ARGUMENT.

 
Only where God and leprechauns are equivalent.
You have demonstrated a list of bad arguments and I have given opinion. Generally....no one is making them and if they did they would probably be suspect even without comparison with Leprechauns.
Leprechauns are therefore being used by you superfluously.

That is tremendous refutation of your argument.
I expect praise from Trentvoyager and will check for his inevitable great review in Forum Best Bits.

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11078
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2017, 12:23:09 PM »
Only where God and leprechauns are equivalent.
You have demonstrated a list of bad arguments and I have given opinion. Generally....no one is making them and if they did they would probably be suspect even without comparison with Leprechauns.
Leprechauns are therefore being used by you superfluously.

That is tremendous refutation of your argument.
I expect praise from Trentvoyager and will check for his inevitable great review in Forum Best Bits.

You may have a wait. I have urgent knitting to do before I get round to that.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2017, 05:44:26 PM »
Vlad the Delusionist,

Quote
Only where God and leprechauns are equivalent.

Flat wrong again, for the reasons I set out in Reply 33 that you just ignored.

The conclusions don’t have to be equivalent at all – just the argument that produces them with equal facility. That’s why a film can be “a roller-coaster ride” without chucking you around the place and filling you with candy floss.

You’re ether desperately confused or desperately dishonest here. You choose.

Quote
You have demonstrated a list of bad arguments and I have given opinion. Generally....no one is making them and if they did they would probably be suspect even without comparison with Leprechauns.

The extent to which you and others attempt them is debatable (they appear frequently on this mb for example), but either way it’s irrelevant. The point rather remains: When an argument for “God” work equally for leprechauns, then it’s probably a bad argument. How often people try such an argument is a secondary matter.     

Quote
Leprechauns are therefore being used by you superfluously.

That’s called a non sequitur (correct meaning, rather than your usage of, "I don't like that but have no rebuttal") – the “therefore” fails because the maxim is a perfectly coherent and useful means of saving the hassle of disassembling an argument to see where it’s gone wrong. I’d suggest to anyone hearing an argument for “god” to ask herself, “Does this work just as well for leprechauns?” and, when it does, to treat the argument accordingly. 

Quote
That is tremendous refutation of your argument.

Possibly the funniest thing you’ve ever said here, albeit unintentionally so. You’re using “tremendous” here presumably in the Trumpian sense of, “abject failure”.
 
Quote
I expect praise from Trentvoyager and will check for his inevitable great review in Forum Best Bits.

Only if he’s lost control of his critical faculties. That said, that area is also home to examples of some of the most incoherent, egregious and ludicrous efforts on this mb (hence your appearances there) so you never know – you could be in with a shout after all. 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 07:03:28 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2017, 10:01:11 AM »


Here it is again: WHEN AN ARGUMENT FOR GOD WORKS JUST AS WELL FOR LEPRECHAUNS, THEN IT’S PROBABLY A BAD ARGUMENT.

You need to demonstrate and illustrate this with a justification.

What you have done so far is to give bad arguments for, well, anything....and then merely illustrating them using the idea of God and Leprechauns.

So without repeating that favoured approach you now actually have to make sense of the statement:-

WHEN AN ARGUMENT FOR GOD WORKS JUST AS WELL FOR LEPRECHAUNS, THEN IT’S PROBABLY A BAD ARGUMENT.

In other words WHY is it a bad argument.

Another point is your claim of IRRELEVANT differences. You need to demonstrate a rationale for dismissing some differences between God and the little chaps and not others.


Finally the claim of faith based statements of fact. You need to demonstrate that people have faith in Leprechauns. You need to produce a Leprechaun worshipper and not a population of people who regard them as fairy tail or truly mythological. Both God and Leprechauns need not be posited as ''faith based statements of fact'' and can be stated as provisional as multiverse, dark matter etc.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 10:03:43 AM by The Good, The Vlad and the Ugly »

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2017, 10:07:31 AM »
Hillside.......

Why are Leprechauns ridiculous?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2017, 11:27:35 AM »
Vlad the Divertonist,

Quote
You need to demonstrate and illustrate this with a justification.

I set out clearly in Reply 33 where you went wrong, and I set out clearly in Reply 69 where your attempt at a response went wrong.

Why have you just ignored both in favour of more mistakes and irrelevance?

Try again. Or don’t. It’s up to you. If you keep avoiding though you’re just exiting yourself from the discussion. 

Quote
What you have done so far is to give bad arguments for, well, anything....and then merely illustrating them using the idea of God and Leprechauns.

Wrong again. Those bad arguments were used merely to illustrate the point, but any other bad arguments would do as well. 

Quote
So without repeating that favoured approach you now actually have to make sense of the statement:-

WHEN AN ARGUMENT FOR GOD WORKS JUST AS WELL FOR LEPRECHAUNS, THEN IT’S PROBABLY A BAD ARGUMENT.

In other words WHY is it a bad argument.

It’s a bad argument because it leads to ridiculous outcomes with the same facility that it leads to outcomes you happen to think not to be ridiculous.

You’re really struggling here aren’t you.

Quote
Another point…

You can’t have an “another’ when you haven’t made a first one yet.

Quote
…is your claim of IRRELEVANT differences. You need to demonstrate a rationale for dismissing some differences between God and the little chaps and not others.

I have – several times in fact. That you just ignore them is your problem, not mine.

Quote
Finally…

You can’t have a “finally when you haven’t managed a “firstly” yet.

Quote
..the claim of faith based statements of fact. You need to demonstrate that people have faith in Leprechauns. You need to produce a Leprechaun worshipper and not a population of people who regard them as fairy tail or truly mythological. Both God and Leprechauns need not be posited as ''faith based statements of fact'' and can be stated as provisional as multiverse, dark matter etc.

Of course I don’t. Whether anyone actually believes in lerprechauns is entirely irrelevant (except in the narrow sense that someone may be attempting an argumentum ad populum specifically).

You’ve shifted ground all over the place here (from the nonsense of “the objects of the analogy can’t be different” via the irrelevance of, “not many people use those arguments anyway” to the bizarreness of, “you have to find someone who believes in leprechauns”). Why?

Here it is again then:

WHEN AN ARGUMENT LEADS EQUALLY TO “GOD” AND TO LEPRECHAUNS, IT’S PROBABLY A BAD ARGUMENT.

Finally engage with it rather that endlessly throw sand at it or don’t – it’s up to you.           
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 11:49:29 AM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #73 on: September 14, 2017, 11:29:14 AM »
Vlad the Disingenuist,

Quote
Why are Leprechauns ridiculous?

For the same reason "God" is - the arguments used to validate both claims are crap. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #74 on: September 14, 2017, 11:52:29 AM »
Vlad the Disingenuist,

For the same reason "God" is - the arguments used to validate both claims are crap.
So leprechauns are ridiculous because they are like God who is ridiculous because God is like Leprechauns who are ridiculous?