Author Topic: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps  (Read 15723 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #100 on: September 23, 2017, 01:02:15 PM »
Sword,

Quote
This has to go down as arguably the most ignorant lack of understanding of religious belief ever.

bluehillshite of the highest order!

Assertion noted. And your argument for it would be what exactly?
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jeremyp

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #101 on: September 23, 2017, 04:09:48 PM »
#33
This has to go down as arguably the most ignorant lack of understanding of religious belief ever.

Explain why.

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Sassy

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #102 on: September 28, 2017, 02:58:17 AM »
Leprechaunyawn.....
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2017, 05:05:35 PM »
There is a Jesus of History, but where are the Leprechauns of History?

Shaker

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2017, 05:18:26 PM »
There is a Jesus of History
That's a matter of opinion, I think.

Majority opinion, I'll grant you that much, but unless you're in a kamikaze mood and feel in need of a spanking over the ad populum/numerum fallacy, you'll be aware that that means nowt.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #105 on: October 13, 2017, 05:23:12 PM »
That's a matter of opinion, I think.

Majority opinion, I'll grant you that much, but unless you're in a kamikaze mood and feel in need of a spanking over the ad populum/numerum fallacy, you'll be aware that that means nowt.
As Hillside would say at this stage everything is probabilistic and I think the probability of the historicity of Jesus is quite high. Of course you might feel in kamikaze mood and try a special plead.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #106 on: October 13, 2017, 05:27:26 PM »
As Hillside would say at this stage everything is probabilistic and I think the probability of the historicity of Jesus is quite high. Of course you might feel in kamikaze mood and try a special plead.

But by the same measure the probability of a divine Jesus is N/A so I am missing your argument here.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #107 on: October 13, 2017, 06:19:38 PM »
But by the same measure the probability of a divine Jesus is N/A so I am missing your argument here.
Historical Jesus versus historical leprechauns Nearly

Historical Jesus highly highly probable Historical leprechauns improbable.
Jesus claims he is the son of God. We are down to mad, bad or son of God.

Shaker

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #108 on: October 13, 2017, 06:20:29 PM »
Historical Jesus versus historical leprechauns Nearly

Historical Jesus highly highly probable Historical leprechauns improbable.
Jesus claims he is the son of God. We are down to mad, bad or son of God.
Those are the only options available to consider, are they? ::)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #109 on: October 13, 2017, 06:27:02 PM »
Those are the only options available to consider, are they? ::)
No.
Historical Jesus vs Mythical Jesus, Jesus as described in the bible vs Jesus as spun in revisionisms front room and then we are into the trilemma.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #110 on: October 13, 2017, 06:30:48 PM »
No.
Historical Jesus vs Mythical Jesus, Jesus as described in the bible vs Jesus as spun in revisionisms front room and then we are into the trilemma.
And historical Jesus using the historical method that you wanted earlier isn't divine. So again you are arguing against yourself.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #111 on: October 13, 2017, 06:38:00 PM »
And historical Jesus using the historical method that you wanted earlier isn't divine. So again you are arguing against yourself.
I'm sorry I don't understand what you are getting at.

If we have a historical Jesus then one of the things this man is supposed to have claimed is that he is the son of God. That takes us into the trilemma.

 


Nearly Sane

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #112 on: October 13, 2017, 06:43:35 PM »
I'm sorry I don't understand what you are getting at.

If we have a historical Jesus then one of the things this man is supposed to have claimed is that he is the son of God. That takes us into the trilemma.

First of all having an historical Jesus dies not mean that you can then then claim what he's reported as saying as true. But worse than that for you, the probability methods used in historical studies are based on methodological naturalism, so you cannot then use them to evaluate any non naturalustic claim.

Shaker

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #113 on: October 13, 2017, 06:44:39 PM »
I'm sorry I don't understand what you are getting at.

If we have a historical Jesus then one of the things this man is supposed to have claimed is that he is the son of God. That takes us into the trilemma.
No. The trilemma is a very, very, bad argument, superficially attractive only to those who don't seem to have thought about it in any depth.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #114 on: October 13, 2017, 06:46:13 PM »
No. The trilemma is a very, very, bad argument, superficially attractive only to those who don't seem to have thought about it in any depth.
Be my guest and justify that statement.

Shaker

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #115 on: October 13, 2017, 06:48:35 PM »
Be my guest and justify that statement.
Others have done so, so I needn't waste my fingers. That's why, on the other thread where you're muckspreading this slurry, I suggested you use the forum's search function and see the 'argument' elegantly dismantled.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2017, 06:52:07 PM »
First of all having an historical Jesus dies not mean that you can then then claim what he's reported as saying as true. But worse than that for you, the probability methods used in historical studies are based on methodological naturalism, so you cannot then use them to evaluate any non naturalustic claim.
Of course not that's why I have only talked about getting to the trilemma. If you want to offer an alternative history where he never claimed this then be my guest, let's have it now.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2017, 06:58:17 PM »
Others have done so, so I needn't waste my fingers. That's why, on the other thread where you're muckspreading this slurry, I suggested you use the forum's search function and see the 'argument' elegantly dismantled.
Ok so if you won't analyse it I will

Man claims to be son of God. He believes it and is deluded in a big way, He is mistaken, he is still deluded, he was told to say it and comes to believe it he is deluded. he is told to say it even though he doesn't believe it he is a liar. He doesn't believe but it's his idea then he's lying and is using it to manipulate others or he's the sun of God.

There you go Shaker a trilemma Mad, Bad or son of God.

Shaker

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #118 on: October 13, 2017, 07:01:31 PM »
Seems to be you who's reluctant to do any analysing.

Fearful of doing so, perhaps, I've no idea.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2017, 07:02:44 PM »
Of course not that's why I have only talked about getting to the trilemma. If you want to offer an alternative history where he never claimed this then be my guest, let's have it now.
But you haven't got to him claiming that, and then you have thrown out the method. You are being illogical.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #120 on: October 13, 2017, 07:09:53 PM »
But you haven't got to him claiming that, and then you have thrown out the method. You are being illogical.
I'm not getting it Sane and until you actually come clean and write a bit more than cryptic little soundbites I don't think I can help You.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2017, 07:18:43 PM »
I'm not getting it Sane and until you actually come clean and write a bit more than cryptic little soundbites I don't think I can help You.
Having a probability of an historic Jesus does not mean that there is a probability that what is claimed he said is high.

Having used the historical method to claim a probability of an historic Jesus, you then can't make any claims since it is naturalistic as a method on that basis for a divine Jesus




Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2017, 07:36:45 PM »
Having a probability of an historic Jesus does not mean that there is a probability that what is claimed he said is high.

Having used the historical method to claim a probability of an historic Jesus, you then can't make any claims since it is naturalistic as a method on that basis for a divine Jesus
I am merely saying what Jesus claims were. I don't know where you get the idea i'm trying to use methodological naturalism to prove divinity.

jeremyp

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2017, 08:05:44 PM »
We are down to mad, bad or son of God.

Well most messiah figures throughout history were demonstrably either mad or bad. e.g. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Joseph Smith, Mohammed.

Any reason to believe Jesus was any different?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Leprechaunodammerung-Twilight of the little chaps
« Reply #124 on: October 14, 2017, 08:12:26 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I'm sorry I don't understand what you are getting at.

If we have a historical Jesus then one of the things this man is supposed to have claimed is that he is the son of God. That takes us into the trilemma.

What strange little backwater are you trying to distract us down now? If you want to argue for a ”historical” Jesus (ie, a man who had some interesting things to say) that’s fine – the usual rules of historicity apply to test the claim but frankly it wouldn’t matter much whether he existed or not, any more than it would matter whether Shakespeare or someone else actually wrote the plays. The surviving work is the primary issue, not the authorship.

And none of this would have anything to do with leprechauns either.   

If on the other hand you want to argue for a divine Jesus then the usual, naturalistic rules of historicity are out of the window and you need to come up with something else. This is where leprechauns have something to tell us – whatever arguments you do want to attempt, just apply the leprechaun test (ie, does the same argument demonstrate leprechauns with the same facility that it demonstrates a divine Jesus?) and, if it does, that tells you that it’s probably a bad argument.

As you now finally understand that this has nothing to do with “comparing god with leprechauns” as you previously thought but rather it’s to do with comparing the arguments used to demonstrate god with leprechauns, you’ll find this a handy short cut to identifying and thus discounting bad arguments.

You’re welcome.   
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 08:16:24 PM by bluehillside »
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