Death by sitting

[Udayana]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/11/moving-every-half-hour-could-help-limit-effects-of-sedentary-lifestyle-says-study

The last 20 years or so I have included a lot of physical activity, mostly running, in my lifestyle to counteract the effects of long hours at my desk for work. But apparently it may not only be the total number of sedentary hours  vs active time on your feet that affects ones health, but also the lengths of the inactive periods. This would explain various problems I've had recently. 

Anyway, now have a new plan. Two computers, one upstairs for work/study and one downstairs for web searches, logging on here and faceache. Should help me better manage my time and forces me to walk around much more often.

Probably no one else is interested but I thought it might be useful idea - at least until they find out it was all wrong and we would all be better off living in a tank run by machines.

[floo]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/11/moving-every-half-hour-could-help-limit-effects-of-sedentary-lifestyle-says-study

The last 20 years or so I have included a lot of physical activity, mostly running, in my lifestyle to counteract the effects of long hours at my desk for work. But apparently it may not only be the total number of sedentary hours  vs active time on your feet that affects ones health, but also the lengths of the inactive periods. This would explain various problems I've had recently. 

Anyway, now have a new plan. Two computers, one upstairs for work/study and one downstairs for web searches, logging on here and faceache. Should help me better manage my time and forces me to walk around much more often.

Probably no one else is interested but I thought it might be useful idea - at least until they find out it was all wrong and we would all be better off living in a tank run by machines.

I have heard that some offices have their staff standing when using their computers, as they regard it as healthier.

[Udayana]

I have heard that some offices have their staff standing when using their computers, as they regard it as healthier.

Yes, people can choose whether to stand or sit, but can be difficult to arrange as you need special furniture.

[floo]

Yes, people can choose whether to stand or sit, but can be difficult to arrange as you need special furniture.

I have my computer desk upstairs so I have to keep going up and down the stairs, doing my chores etc, which is pretty good exercise 

[SusanDoris]

Udayana



Do what I did a month or so ago - buy a Swiss ball. Mine cost about £27 and the chap in the sports shop pumped it up for me properly. I have been using it to sit at the computer and rarely use the chair now. Just by sitting on it you are automatically strengthening back and abdomen muscles. It works!!

My older son has been using one in the office where he works since a friend recommended it and he said I ought to get one, but of course I didn't! However, seeing the physio a month or so ago in order to ask if she had any extra exercises for left hip and back, she said she couldn't think of any more than those  I am
doing, but then wondered whether a ball would be a good idea. She was concerned that my balance might not be good enough because of the lack of vision, but in fact  it was fine.  I thought the chairwas comfortable but now I hardly ever use it!  My son said, well I won't say I told you so, but I told you so!!:)

[Rhiannon]

This is called anecdote

She's right. It is used in Pilates and strengthens the core muscles because you need to engage them to keep your balance. I know about this as I have a back problem due to hypermobility and Pilates exercises for core strength are the first line in fixing and preventing them. A friend's daughter who is hypermobile goes horse riding for a similar reason.

[SusanDoris]

I do not claim it was other than an anecdote, but I hope it will have been a useful one!

Rhiannon- my son was a |Herculese pilot for 20 years and then flew for Jet2 for a few years.

[Udayana]

This is called anecdote

Yes.

It certainly sounds worth trying, it either helps any individual or it doesn't. Even after a comprehensive study:

a) Someone will come up with a study concluding the exact opposite.
b) Any individual may fall, statistically, into a group helped by the ball, even if the study finds no evidence in favour (or vice versa).
 
I do use a Swiss ball in gym workouts - based on once being shown how to use it by a trainer, but not on any scientific evidence at all!

[Rhiannon]

I know its use there - claiming though that it works as an improvement in sitting at a desk though isn't something I've seen the details for, nor an analysis that would cover whether it might be bad for some/many/most people in that circumstance. . Claiming that ' it works' through personal anecdote means that you would support Sriram's claims for homeopathy

No, because core strength can be objectively measured.

[Udayana]

... Claiming that ' it works' through personal anecdote means that you would support Sriram's claims for homeopathy

That seems to be extrapolating SD's suggestion too far into a different area - it need not follow logically. And even homeopathic medices may "work" for some people through a placebo effect.

[SusanDoris]

I wish I had somehow measure my core strength before and now!

One thing too is that it is not a large expemse to buy a ball.

[Udayana]

How is the area she discussed 'it working' in extrapolating it too far? Are you saying that in the tetm 'it works' as a claim homeopathy does? I doubt, though please correct me if I am wrong, that you think someone should be able to claim praying works as a generic claim? And do you think Sriram would be correct in saying 'homeopathy works' as a generic claim?

Both SD and Rhi provided anecdotes of something that they feel worked for them, imv that does not equate to a generic claim. We do know that muscles can be strengthened by exercise, so the anecdotes are at least plausible in the absence of full knowledge from studies. 

Prayer and homeopathy have been studied and are known not to work as claimed, however some  individuals who have tried them do feel that they have been helped.

In both cases whether anyone using the methods suggested will feel better or not is a matter of chance but the probabilities are not the same.

[Udayana]

So you support people trying things rather than testing them? Seems at odds with your position arguing with Sriram on the Uninhabitable earth thread?

I think if something is being recommended for most people or a whole society it needs to evidenced and tested - certainly properly thought through.

In the meantime anyone is free to try out an idea if they think it could help - they need to think through the possible effects on them personally. 

You seem to be asking for a level of consistency that can't be maintained over such disparate areas or scales. Eg the consequences of someone trying a vegetarian diet on the recommendation of a friend are completely different to a whole society deciding to halt meat production/consumption.

[Rhiannon]

Physiotherapy is evidence based medicine. Homeopathy isn't.

[Rhiannon]

Anecdote in a particular claim is anecdote and if not tested dangerous.

And if you put people off physiotherapy because you equate it with homeopathy then so are you.

[Rhiannon]

Nevertheless you are linking evidence based medicine with bollockry. Let's hope people don't take that too seriously.

[Udayana]

All anecdotes are not the same, offering different levels of danger.

Everything can be dangerous but I doubt that the risk of falling off a ball is worse than the long term risk of sitting in a chair, and both will be better than trying to cure your cancer with homeopathy.  It's a matter of judgment of risk by the individual.

For regulation, obviously we want to get the best evidence we can and work from that; but I can't see pilates being banned but homeopathy certainly could be.

[jeremyp]

Which has nothing to do with an overall claim that to will work for Udayana's need or indeed not make it worse.


There is a double standard used to this  type of statement which is dangerous.

It's not the same as homeopathy claims because a plausible hypothesis has been proposed as to how the Swiss ball might help.

[jeremyp]

Anecdote in a particular claim is anecdote and if not tested dangerous.

Really?

Got any evidence that untested anecdotes are always dangerous?

[jeremyp]

in that it's a bad argument, yes. Or do you think that using bad arguments isn't dangerous?

You could give me examples, but they would just be anecdotes.

[jeremyp]

But untested. Plausible hypothesis lead to thalidomide even with testing.

Arguing from the specific to the general. Isn't that some kind of fallacy?

I think we can all agree that a certain level of exercise is good for you (bar a few outliers like Douglas Adams and Andrew Marr). So the only gap is whether sitting on a Swiss ball all day provides sufficient exercise to be of benefit. This is a rather smaller gap than the one between what a homeopathic remedy is and its claimed benefits.

[Udayana]

That's a nice anecdote. The point is if anecdote uys validated you make the argument for it being good. The question is about the argument. See blue hillside's long ongoing discussion about leprechauns. If something is a bad argument, it's a bad argument.

The thread is, or was, not about any argument at all. It was intended to be about practical ways to avoid being stuck in an inactive position in front of a screen or at a desk. Clearly top of the list must be to avoid getting into quibbling about arguments on internet forums!

[jeremyp]

The specific to the general would be the argument by anecdote?

Yes, your anecdote about thalidomide.

[Rhiannon]

I had a problem that my GP and consultant couldn't fix, so I did some research on it and found anecdotes from people with similar problems that had been helped with physiotherapy, so I got myself a book on the exercises that I'd need to do and now I'm 90% improved on where I was.

This is just an anecdote of course and by following the advice of other people giving anecdotes I was doing something very very dangerous.

[Nearly Sane]

The thread is, or was, not about any argument at all. It was intended to be about practical ways to avoid being stuck in an inactive position in front of a screen or at a desk. Clearly top of the list must be to avoid getting into quibbling about arguments on internet forums!

Yes, you're right. This wasn't the room for an argument. Will remove my quibbling. Apologies.