Author Topic: No Boy, Girl  (Read 10424 times)

Robbie

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2017, 09:20:44 AM »
Which one, Harrowby's or Tripey's?
I understood Harrowby's post but not Trippymonkey's response.
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Maeght

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2017, 09:30:09 AM »
I'm all for avoiding gender stereotypes but to try to ignore the sex of the child seems going a bit far.

Robbie

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2017, 09:47:25 AM »
I agree, we are what are.  Maybe they are not exactly doing that though & it's all about not gender stereotyping, which I think most schools try to avoid nowadays.  The Swedish pre-schools in the article seems to be making an awful lot out of what is quite usual.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 09:51:41 AM by Robinson »
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Outrider

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2017, 09:47:46 AM »
Seems daft, experimenting on children with no actual knowledge of how they will be affected psychologically.

Really? It seems like we've been 'experimenting' with a binary gender definition for centuries, and we have solid reports of the damage it can do if you don't neatly fit into those compartments. It seems like a different 'experiment' might result in more happy people.

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Anyway, what about the influences of parents, family, TV and the rest of society when they are not at school?

TV and society at large are already adopting a more enlightened and nuanced view of the interplay between gender, sex and sexuality; that's why 'gay' rights and issues are now 'LGBTQI' rights and issues.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2017, 09:51:31 AM »
I'm all for avoiding gender stereotypes but to try to ignore the sex of the child seems going a bit far.

Is wearing  dress, though, ignoring the sex or the gender? Does being female necessitate wearing an open-bottomed garment, somehow, or is that our cultural expectation of girls?

O.
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Robbie

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2017, 09:56:00 AM »
Most little girls wear trousers or shorts same as boys, especially for a pre-school where they play a lot, they're comfortable and practical - but we can't ignore the fact that some girls really like dresses!

The way I see it is just let them develop naturally without making a big issue out of anything.  The important thing is for children to be happy.
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Maeght

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2017, 09:57:52 AM »
Is wearing  dress, though, ignoring the sex or the gender? Does being female necessitate wearing an open-bottomed garment, somehow, or is that our cultural expectation of girls?

O.

No, I was referring to the suggestion that the words boy and girl were avoided completely.

Outrider

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2017, 09:58:51 AM »
Most little girls wear trousers or shorts same as boys, especially for a pre-school where they play a lot, they're comfortable and practical - but we can't ignore the fact that some girls really like dresses!

I think the issue comes up more when the little boys like dresses

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The way I see it is just let them develop naturally without making a big issue out of anything.  The important thing is for children to be happy.

Surely not! How can they be happy doing what they like and not what I think is right!!!!

O.
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Maeght

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2017, 09:59:25 AM »
Most little girls wear trousers or shorts same as boys, especially for a pre-school where they play a lot, they're comfortable and practical - but we can't ignore the fact that some girls really like dresses!

The way I see it is just let them develop naturally without making a big issue out of anything.  The important thing is for children to be happy.

Do they really like dresses though because of the positive feedback they get when they wear them?

Robbie

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2017, 10:03:23 AM »
 ;D to Outrider

Maeght - No, some are naturally drawn to pretty fabrics and designs.  Others couldn't care less!  Which goes to show we shouldn't stereotype.
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Maeght

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2017, 10:09:38 AM »
;D to Outrider

Maeght - No, some are naturally drawn to pretty fabrics and designs.  Others couldn't care less!  Which goes to show we shouldn't stereotype.

Someare, but pretty fabrics aren't restricted to dresses. Not sure how you can say a blanket No, I think it is most likely. I think there are cultural signals and influences we all give out without realising it, but that eill always be the case, we just need to avoid it where we can.

Outrider

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2017, 10:10:25 AM »
Do they really like dresses though because of the positive feedback they get when they wear them?

Isn't positive feedback a big part of why we all like the things we do?

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Maeght

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2017, 10:12:49 AM »
Isn't positive feedback a big part of why we all like the things we do?

O.

Yes of course.

Sriram

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2017, 11:08:06 AM »


We are a product of both Nature and Nurture. Its not just about genitals and hormones. Its also about how the mind is developed through upbringing.

And there is nothing wrong about nurture. That's the way we develop. You can't leave a baby alone in a field and 'allow' it to develop as it wishes. That is nonsense.   

While deliberate gender stereotyping should be avoided, certain forms of nurture and training are an important part of every child's life.  There is no such thing as a 'natural' liking for something. There is always an element of upbringing attached to it. It can't be avoided.

Recognizing ones gender and sex is one of the most important elements of a child's upbringing. How can that be avoided?

Outrider

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2017, 11:26:27 AM »
Recognizing ones gender and sex is one of the most important elements of a child's upbringing. How can that be avoided?

I think the issues come when:
a) sex and gender are assumed to be the same thing;
b) gender isn't 'recognised', it's enforced; and
c) gender ideas massively differentiate the way people are treated and the expectations and limitations that societies put on them.

O.
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Udayana

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2017, 11:29:14 AM »
I think the issues come when:
a) sex and gender are assumed to be the same thing;
b) gender isn't 'recognised', it's enforced; and
c) gender ideas massively differentiate the way people are treated and the expectations and limitations that societies put on them.

O.
Well, just avoid doing those things?
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Udayana

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2017, 11:34:40 AM »
Really? It seems like we've been 'experimenting' with a binary gender definition for centuries, and we have solid reports of the damage it can do if you don't neatly fit into those compartments. It seems like a different 'experiment' might result in more happy people.
I was just thinking that if a study was proposed to achieve the same ends using drugs or, say, some kind of behavioural conditioning, it wouldn't get ethical approval.
Quote
TV and society at large are already adopting a more enlightened and nuanced view of the interplay between gender, sex and sexuality; that's why 'gay' rights and issues are now 'LGBTQI' rights and issues.
Culture changes all the time, let it do its job. This is like trying to stop people liking pop music by letting them listen to nothing but opera.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Outrider

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2017, 11:40:17 AM »
I was just thinking that if a study was proposed to achieve the same ends using drugs or, say, some kind of behavioural conditioning, it wouldn't get ethical approval.

That's the exact opposite of this 'experiment'. This is saying that rather than force a cultural expectation onto children, let's let them grow into whomever they feel they want to be. This is deliberately attempting to avoid conditioning, not to enforce it.

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Culture changes all the time, let it do its job.

We are - culture, at least in modern Western democracies, is moving towards a culture of personal liberty and freedom, where people have the space and right to grow as they choose, not to be constricted or defined by other people's conceptualisations of what they should be.

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This is like trying to stop people liking pop music by letting them listen to nothing but opera.

No, this is like saying to people you can listen to whatever music you'd like, and though some pretentious purists will tell you that classical is the only music you need, and social movers and shakers are all about milking your money through what they're pushing through the charts, you have access to the smooth jazz selection if you'd like...

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Maeght

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2017, 11:46:16 AM »
I was just thinking that if a study was proposed to achieve the same ends using drugs or, say, some kind of behavioural conditioning, it wouldn't get ethical approval.Culture changes all the time, let it do its job. This is like trying to stop people liking pop music by letting them listen to nothing but opera.

The problem comes when cultural expectations effect people's opportunities in life or how thet fit into society.  If a child is conditioned to think they can't do this or that or should do this or that due to their sex then this is wrong.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2017, 01:10:16 PM »
The problem comes when cultural expectations effect people's opportunities in life or how thet fit into society.  If a child is conditioned to think they can't do this or that or should do this or that due to their sex then this is wrong.

Pedantry warning:

In the first sentence, did you mean "effect" or "affect"?  A single mis-applied letter totally changes the meaning of the sentence.
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Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2017, 02:30:28 PM »
when I was young I was once caught fucking a melon, it was so embarrassing . After a while Mrs Melon made it clear , I was no longer welcome in their house

That is not sex, or gender, it is penetration.

(and the old ones aint always the best)

Udayana

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2017, 03:57:14 PM »
The problem comes when cultural expectations effect people's opportunities in life or how thet fit into society.  If a child is conditioned to think they can't do this or that or should do this or that due to their sex then this is wrong.
I agree. The answer is to influence and change the culture and society they grow up in and into, not try and manipulate children by having them grow up in a bubble.

If there is one thing I have learnt about humans it is that they will always find a bug in their programming and break out.
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Robbie

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2017, 05:15:32 PM »
The problem comes when cultural expectations effect people's opportunities in life or how thet fit into society.  If a child is conditioned to think they can't do this or that or should do this or that due to their sex then this is wrong.

Very wrong indeed but happens less often than in the past.  Thinking about it, my parents didn't condition me (or my sister), in that way all those many years ago but my mum had a career.
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Sriram

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2017, 05:41:40 PM »
I think the issues come when:
a) sex and gender are assumed to be the same thing;
b) gender isn't 'recognised', it's enforced; and
c) gender ideas massively differentiate the way people are treated and the expectations and limitations that societies put on them.

O.



To eliminate gender discrimination you can't eliminate gender itself.  Like cutting off the head to get rid of a headache.

Outrider

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Re: No Boy, Girl
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2017, 05:51:20 PM »
To eliminate gender discrimination you can't eliminate gender itself.  Like cutting off the head to get rid of a headache.

There's a difference between eliminating gender and not emphasising it; the gender identity will be there, but if you don't make reference to it - especially not in undifferentiated binary terms - then it develops along its own fluid pathway rather than being corralled down a road of cultural expectation.

O.
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