No Boy, Girl

[Maeght]

Yes and I agree with that post. The question wasn't really aimed at you. However you say you agree with Sweetpea, who seems to me to be talking in terms of gender stereotypes. This may not be the case but until this is established ars you sure you should be agreeing?

[Harrowby Hall]

Girls are "sugar and spice, and all things nice". Boys are "slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails". So I was told when I was a little boy. And this seemed to inform the behaviour of adults towards me.

Girls were considered to be morally superior to boys - more truthful, more honest. Were I to be in dispute with a girl - in almost any situation - the girl's version of events would be accepted as correct. Girls were given comfort when distressed, boys were told to be strong.

Girls received more considerate treatment. At my junior school, children were not allowed inside the school buildings during the lunch break, if it rained girls were let into the building boys remained outside.

[Sriram]

Girls are "sugar and spice, and all things nice". Boys are "slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails". So I was told when I was a little boy. And this seemed to inform the behaviour of adults towards me.

Girls were considered to be morally superior to boys - more truthful, more honest. Were I to be in dispute with a girl - in almost any situation - the girl's version of events would be accepted as correct. Girls were given comfort when distressed, boys were told to be strong.

Girls received more considerate treatment. At my junior school, children were not allowed inside the school buildings during the lunch break, if it rained girls were let into the building boys remained outside.

Your culture and upbringing made you what you are. If you had been treated like a girl you may not have been the same person that you are.

My point is that culture and upbringing cannot be separated from sex and gender identification.  There is no such thing as a boy or girl being 'left free to choose'. Everyone needs to be taught and trained to be what they are, without which suitable neural connections will not happen. The personality will not develop without culture and training.

[Maeght]

Your culture and upbringing made you what you are. If you had been treated like a girl you may not have been the same person that you are.

My point is that culture and upbringing cannot be separated from sex and gender identification.  There is no such thing as a boy or girl being 'left free to choose'. Everyone needs to be taught and trained to be what they are, without which suitable neural connections will not happen. The personality will not develop without culture and training.

So you think that peole born with a particular set of genitalia should be trained to confirm to cultural gender stereotypes, usually led by men who want women to be what they would like I have to say.

[Rhiannon]

When I was pregnant a lot of people (including other pregnant mums) said it was 'good' to have a girl as girls were 'easier'. What a load of utter bollocks, but people were worried about having boys. Ffs.

[floo]

Your culture and upbringing made you what you are. If you had been treated like a girl you may not have been the same person that you are.

My point is that culture and upbringing cannot be separated from sex and gender identification.  There is no such thing as a boy or girl being 'left free to choose'. Everyone needs to be taught and trained to be what they are, without which suitable neural connections will not happen. The personality will not develop without culture and training.

YE GODS, but I preferred to play with boy's toys when I was a child. I would have resented having dolls forced on me.

[Outrider]

Your culture and upbringing made you what you are. If you had been treated like a girl you may not have been the same person that you are.

Absolutely.

My point is that culture and upbringing cannot be separated from sex and gender identification.

Well, sex it can, that's a biological determination, but gender I'd agree is a function of society and culture.

There is no such thing as a boy or girl being 'left free to choose'.

Choose between what?

Everyone needs to be taught and trained to be what they are, without which suitable neural connections will not happen.

They're people, and they need to be taught that. They are unique, individual people, and whilst some of them can be grouped by, say, their reproductive organs, that no more needs to primarily define or limit them than, say, their physical build or their height. These all have formative influences on them, there are necessary, unavoidable restrictions that these physical realities impose, but we don't need to culturally add to impositions and expectations.

The personality will not develop without culture and training.

It can't develop without cultural influence, certainly, but how are we training people to be something when we have no idea who they're going to be when they get there?

O.

[Sriram]

Who decides which are cultural restrictions and which are cultural necessities?!   

[Outrider]

Who decides which are cultural restrictions and which are cultural necessities?!

Society. Currently society seems to be moving towards a less restrictive, more open and self-determined view of gender, at least in the more liberal, Western arenas.

O.

[floo]

Society. Currently society seems to be moving towards a less restrictive, more open and self-determined view of gender, at least in the more liberal, Western arenas.

O.

Thank goodness.

[Rhiannon]

Society. Currently society seems to be moving towards a less restrictive, more open and self-determined view of gender, at least in the more liberal, Western arenas.

O.

I'm not convinced this really is the case. It's very surface; gender neutral school uniforms don't do much to counter the porn culture or even the dominant disneyfication of what it means to be female and the Marvel version of masculinity.

[Outrider]

I'm not convinced this really is the case. It's very surface; gender neutral school uniforms don't do much to counter the porn culture or even the dominant disneyfication of what it means to be female and the Marvel version of masculinity.

But it's a start - it has to start somewhere. Racial equality isn't even nearly all the way there, but it's come quite a way, and that started with simple, superficial things like changing the terms of reference people used.

Just the fact that people are having the discussion in the public forum about what it means to be male/female, learning that sex and gender aren't as intrinsically linked as we'd previously assumed, learning therefore that gender roles are constrictive and limiting for everyone... this is a start.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not convinced this really is the case. It's very surface; gender neutral school uniforms don't do much to counter the porn culture or even the dominant disneyfication of what it means to be female and the Marvel version of masculinity.

That there are multiple influences pulling in different ways is undoubtedly true, and while I am not a great believer in claims of absolute progress, surely there is almost by definition a large change in how we think of gender in that it was previously seen effectively the same as sex?

[Maeght]

Who decides which are cultural restrictions and which are cultural necessities?!

Provided things are within the law of the land individuals can decide for themselves what there likes and dislikes are, how they want to dress, what they are interested in, what careers they have and so on. Why should anyone else impose any of that on someone just because they have a particular genitalia?

What sort of thing did you have in mind when you said cultural necessities?

[SweetPea]

Just to clarify my previous post.... I was not referring so much to gender differences, i.e. girls doing boyish things, boys doing girly things.... all quite normal and healthy, and also relates to boys recognising the female part of their personality and girls realising the male part of their personality. It's the idea of not using the term 'boy' or 'girl' and referring to the children with a genderless word "hen". All that will be achieved is a group of confused and ultimately, in some cases, maladjusted children.

This is social engineering at it's best, and what I meant by evil masquerading as good.

[Maeght]

Just to clarify my previous post.... I was not referring so much to gender differences, i.e. girls doing boyish things, boys doing girly things.... all quite normal and healthy, and also relates to boys recognising the female part of their personality and girls realising the male part of their personality. It's the idea of not using the term 'boy' or 'girl' and referring to the children with a genderless word "hen". All that will be achieved is a group of confused and ultimately, in some cases, maladjusted children.

This is social engineering at it's best, and what I meant by evil masquerading as good.

Thanks for the clarification, good to hear. I think however you are over stating the effect of using a word which is recognised as a gender neutral term in Swedish. I really don't think the children will be confused.

[Shaker]

Thanks for the clarification, good to hear. I think however you are over stating the effect of using a word which is recognised as a gender neutral term in Swedish. I really don't think the children will be confused.

Indeed.

It's surprising how un-confused children are by things that some adults profess to be confused by, or who think (on their behalf) that children will be confused by.

[floo]

The most important thing is for a person to be comfortable with the skin they are in.

[Rhiannon]

Thanks for the clarification, good to hear. I think however you are over stating the effect of using a word which is recognised as a gender neutral term in Swedish. I really don't think the children will be confused.

Agree completely. 'Maladjustment' is far more likely to arise from trying to live within strictly defined gender roles.

[Sriram]

The most important thing is for a person to be comfortable with the skin they are in.

Yes...and the skin a person is comfortable in does not depend only on their genes and genitals. It depends also on their upbringing and culture. We all learn what we are by and by, not the day we are born. So...what we are taught is very important.

[floo]

Yes...and the skin a person is comfortable in does not depend only on their genes and genitals. It depends also on their upbringing and culture. We all learn what we are by and by, not the day we are born. So...what we are taught is very important.

One can rebel against one's upbringing and culture. I kicked into touch the religion, which was forced down my throat, and my mother's attempt to always dress me in pretty clothes, which I detested.

[Shaker]

Yes...and the skin a person is comfortable in does not depend only on their genes and genitals. It depends also on their upbringing and culture. We all learn what we are by and by, not the day we are born. So...what we are taught is very important.

Rejecting what we are taught can be even more important.

[Sriram]

One can rebel against one's upbringing and culture. I kicked into touch the religion, which was forced down my throat, and my mother's attempt to always dress me in pretty clothes, which I detested.

Yes...and that rebellion will again be due to someone else's teaching or due to an innate tendency towards rebellion during adolescence.

[Sriram]

Absolutely.

Well, sex it can, that's a biological determination, but gender I'd agree is a function of society and culture.

Choose between what?

They're people, and they need to be taught that. They are unique, individual people, and whilst some of them can be grouped by, say, their reproductive organs, that no more needs to primarily define or limit them than, say, their physical build or their height. These all have formative influences on them, there are necessary, unavoidable restrictions that these physical realities impose, but we don't need to culturally add to impositions and expectations.

It can't develop without cultural influence, certainly, but how are we training people to be something when we have no idea who they're going to be when they get there?

O.

Biology and upbringing are connected.  Sex and gender are interdependent.  If a child is taught to live like the opposite gender for example, it is possible that through epigenetic mechanisms his/her... gene expression...neural connections...hormonal development ....are affected. 

[Rhiannon]

Unlikely.

Years ago I watched a beautiful and achingly sad French film about a boy who was born in rural France on the Victorian era. His genitalia were not fully formed and at birth he was declared female. Because of her Catholic upbringing his mother never looked directly at his body and he was raised as a girl. But as a young adult he was attracted to women and fell in love; a subsequent court case revealed he was in fact male. He killed himself.

Sex and gender are not as interdependent as you think, Stiram, and nature will out.