Author Topic: Faith vs blind faith  (Read 88707 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Faith vs blind faith
« on: October 03, 2017, 06:02:03 PM »
...apparently there's a difference.

Could someone have a go at explaining what it might be please?

Thanks.

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God

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2017, 06:02:45 PM »
Oh, that old one ... ::)

I'm all ears.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2017, 06:05:16 PM »
Dear atheist equivalent of the Chuckle Brothers

Define your terms.

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2017, 06:06:51 PM »
Dear atheist equivalent of the Chuckle Brothers

Define your terms.
Isn't that the responsibility of those who employ them in the context of their worldview?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2017, 06:09:48 PM »
Dear atheist equivalent of the Chuckle Brothers

Define your terms.
Dear theist equivalent of Mr Magoo.
Try defining your ......oh never mind, there is no hope!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2017, 06:09:56 PM »
Isn't that the responsibility of those who employ them in the context of their worldview?
The term Blind faith is mostly ejecta from the the rectal passage of new atheism, so be my guest.

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2017, 06:10:55 PM »
The term Blind faith is mostly ejecta from the the rectal passage of new atheism, so be my guest.

[citation needed]
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2017, 06:12:08 PM »
[citation needed]
Shouldn't that be shite-ation?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 06:12:54 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Dear atheist equivalent of the Chuckle Brothers

To me, to you...

Quote
Define your terms.

They're not my terms. Occasionally Christians here tell me that I fail to distinguish between the two versions of their term "faith". I ask merely what that difference might be according to whatever definitions those Christians rely on.
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 06:18:15 PM »
Vlad,

To me, to you...

They're not my terms. Occasionally Christians here tell me that I fail to distinguish between the two versions of their term "faith". I ask merely what that difference might be according to whatever definitions those Chrsitans think they mean.
OK Faith is personal trust in an encountered personal God..... Blind faith is a term I've only heard atheists use in the place of faith. The closest I can get to what I imagine an atheist means by it is ''a mere guess.''
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 06:27:46 PM by Difference between ID and simulated universe? »

Maeght

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2017, 06:42:12 PM »
Isn't it more to do with whether the person with faith has a full understanding of what they have faith in?

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 06:43:33 PM »
Isn't it more to do with whether the person with faith has a full understanding of what they have faith in?
But which theist would ever claim to have full understanding of the god they believe in?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 06:53:27 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
OK Faith is personal trust in an encountered personal God..... Blind faith is a term I've only heard atheists use in the place of faith. The closest I can get to what I imagine an atheist means by it is ''a mere guess.''

Actually it was Sword of the wotsit who last used "blind faith" (I think he'd call himself a Christian?), but anyways - how then would you establish a logical path from "personal trust" in something to it being more than a guess - ie, not "blind"?

"Don't make me come down there."

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 06:55:42 PM »
Maeght,

Quote
Isn't it more to do with whether the person with faith has a full understanding of what they have faith in?

I'm not sure even the tinfoil hat Christians here would claim to have a full understanding of their god would they? 
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 07:03:14 PM »
Vlad,

Actually it was Sword of the wotsit who last used "blind faith" (I think he'd call himself a Christian?), but anyways - how then would you establish a logical path from "personal trust" in something to it being more than a guess - ie, not "blind"?
Not sure what you are after here Hillside but at first glance you seem to demanding that love or trust of a personal God encountered be turned into some kind of intellectual belief in an abstract idea.

I think you mean for believers to conform to the new atheist homunculus.........a neural network for storing neutral facts for the acquisition of material in various combinations.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 07:07:48 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Not sure what you are after here Hillside but at first glance you seem to demanding that love or trust of a personal God encountered be turned into some kind of intellectual belief in an abstract idea.

Not at all. I'm just trying to get to why - for those who would assert his god also to be my god if only I knew it - I should have as much confidence in his "personal trust" as he has. 

Quote
I think you mean for believers to conform to the new atheist homunculus.........a neural network for storing neutral facts for the acquisition of material in various combinations.

The random word generator has kicked in a bit early tonight hasn't it?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 07:15:14 PM »
Vlad,

Not at all. I'm just trying to get to why - for those who would assert his god also to be my god if only I knew it - I should have as much confidence in his "personal trust" as he has. 

I don't think anybody is asking anybody else to trust in God on the strength of their own faith Hillside. That is a distortion of evangelical Christianity.

In other words....it's down to you and God at the end of the day.

Gordon

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 07:30:43 PM »
For me 'faith' in the religious sense is a synonym for the holding of unjustified beliefs in supernatural agents: in that when those claiming 'faith' are asked to support these beliefs independently of their personal convictions their attempts at justification fail due to the absence of relevant methods of investigation and/or reliance on fallacious reasoning.

Anchorman

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 07:38:28 PM »
Wot's wrong with blind faith, then?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2017, 07:48:21 PM »
For me 'faith' in the religious sense is a synonym for the holding of unjustified beliefs in supernatural agents: in that when those claiming 'faith' are asked to support these beliefs independently of their personal convictions their attempts at justification fail due to the absence of relevant methods of investigation and/or reliance on fallacious reasoning.
In a way I think you've been wise to just snipe at contributions rather than add anything more than the above to debate.
I have here then to give Hillside his due at actually having the guts to put something coherent forward for perusal even if it is ''The philosophy that dare not speak it's name.''

Gordon

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2017, 07:55:50 PM »
In a way I think you've been wise to just snipe at contributions rather than add anything more than the above to debate.
I have here then to give Hillside his due at actually having the guts to put something coherent forward for perusal even if it is ''The philosophy that dare not speak it's name.''

In what way is my describing religious 'faith' as unjustified beliefs incoherent?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2017, 07:59:30 PM »
In what way is my describing religious 'faith' as unjustified beliefs incoherent?
It's a slogan which as yet has not been justified.
If I haven't asked for it before can I ask you now to justify that assertion. If you are able to produce half of what Hillside manages i'm sure that would go some way.

Gordon

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2017, 08:08:22 PM »
It's a slogan which as yet has not been justified.
If I haven't asked for it before can I ask you now to justify that assertion. If you are able to produce half of what Hillside manages i'm sure that would go some way.

Don't be silly: as I explained in my earlier post the absence of methods suited to investigating religious faith-based claims, and/or the dependence on fallacies, justifies my noting that religious faith involves beliefs that are unjustified. All you need do now is produce a methodology for investigating the supernatural without straying into fallacies so as to justify your faith-based beliefs - and we'll all be falling at your feet.

On you go!   

ippy

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2017, 08:17:47 PM »
Isn't it more to do with whether the person with faith has a full understanding of what they have faith in?

No disrespect to you or your coment intended Maeght, or to any of the other non-religious/realist, contributers to this thread but, does it really matter whatever the difference is between these two?

ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2017, 08:19:54 PM »
Don't be silly: as I explained in my earlier post the absence of methods suited to investigating religious faith-based claims, and/or the dependence on fallacies, justifies my noting that religious faith involves beliefs that are unjustified. All you need do now is produce a methodology for investigating the supernatural without straying into fallacies so as to justify your faith-based beliefs - and we'll all be falling at your feet.

On you go!
No my position is that there are no knock down arguments on either side, science has nothing to say in support or against atheism or agnosticism, and you guys, when it comes down to it are just absence of physical evidence is evidence of absence.

Now can you or can you not justify your assertion that faith is unjustified belief?

I think the trouble is that you don't want to put up anything that constitutes any justification for your beliefs about faith for fear of the Emmental nature of them.

I recall here one or two who a few years ago cheerfully and unashamedly announcing loud and proud their physicalism and naturalism but nobody is keen to now because they were treated to some refutations...................

Does that explain your reluctance to make justification?