Faith vs blind faith

[Outrider]

Atheist brains studied demonstrate a difficulty in conceptualising God IMHO. Could that be the scleroticising effect of atheism?

Arguably it's a cause, rather than a result.

As to whether everyone would fall for that caricature of Leprechauns, that's only the laughably simplistic breakfast-cereal box depiction - that's not the Leprechauns that real Leprechaunists believe in any more than God is an old white guy with a beard on a cloud with a lightning bolt (presumably because of copyright infringements against Zeus?).

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Utterly irrelevant.

And presumably those who believe in various gods can visualise them too, at least to some degree. As it has no relevance to the question though, it doesn’t matter much either way.

I do: no.


As you keep ducking and diving, here it is again: when a theist says, “I know that my god is your god too because that’s my faith” can you think of any reason at all to treat his claim as anything other than a guess – ie, to consider his faith to be “blind” for epistemic purposes?

Show me anywhere on this board where a theist said  “I know that my god is your god too because that’s my faith”.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Arguably it's a cause, rather than a result.

As to whether everyone would fall for that caricature of Leprechauns, that's only the laughably simplistic breakfast-cereal box depiction - that's not the Leprechauns that real Leprechaunists believe in any more than God is an old white guy with a beard on a cloud with a lightning bolt (presumably because of copyright infringements against Zeus?).

O.

Show me a real leprechaunist! or quote one......
In any case genuine belief should be distinguishable from Bullshitting by............................yes......................You've guessed it.........................
A brain scan.

(cue armies of river dancing Leprechauns)

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Show me anywhere on this board where a theist said  “I know that my god is your god too because that’s my faith”.

Why?

The question was: "...when a theist says, “I know that my god is your god too because that’s my faith” can you think of any reason at all to treat his claim as anything other than a guess – ie, to consider his faith to be “blind” for epistemic purposes?"

If you're not that theist, then so be it. Just say, "no I can't think of a reason not to treat his claim as a guess" and move one.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Show me a real leprechaunist! or quote one......
In any case genuine belief should be distinguishable from Bullshitting by............................yes......................You've guessed it.........................
A brain scan.

(cue armies of river dancing Leprechauns)

You really, really struggle with the concept of the analogy don't you.

Show me the needle! Show me the haystack!

[Gordon]

I'm going to buy some shares in a company that manufactures brain scanners now that Vlad has pronounced: there will be queues - nay droves - of punters wanting to know if the guessing centre in their brains does indeed glow, or not glow, depending on their personal convictions. Surprised the professional neurologists haven't exploited this opportunity: there's gold in them thar' brains y'know!

Has to be a winner, given Vlad's endorsement of the approach.

[ippy]

Yes and we've got an Ippy, that just leaves George and Bungle.........come on chaps i'm feeding you the lines here.

Don't bring me into your awestriking, deep intellectual ongoings Vlad, I lost you amongst the leprechauns riding unicorns in dingley dell some time ago.

ippy

P S There is something a bit on the silly side about blind faith, it sounds potty to me?

[Outrider]

Show me a real leprechaunist! or quote one......

So the Leprechaunist analogy is invalid because you don't think there are any. Does that mean that the comparison with adherents of Norse mythology is invalid because there are none (or at least, presumably, vanishingly few) any more? How about if we make the comparison with Shintoists and their nature spirits, then? How come the number of actual adherents makes a difference, when the qualitative differences in the argument are solely about the spelling of the imaginary target?

In any case genuine belief should be distinguishable from Bullshitting by............................yes......................You've guessed it......................... A brain scan.

And the brain scans of Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Shintoists and Voudon and Pagans and so on .... do they differ?

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So the Leprechaunist analogy is invalid because you don't think there are any. Does that mean that the comparison with adherents of Norse mythology is invalid because there are none (or at least, presumably, vanishingly few) any more? How about if we make the comparison with Shintoists and their nature spirits, then? How come the number of actual adherents makes a difference, when the qualitative differences in the argument are solely about the spelling of the imaginary target?

I don't know if this helps but folks have pondered a version of a Leprechaun which was identical to what a Christian would describe as God.
My answer to that , naturally, is ''In what way then can it be a Leprechaun then?'' another Good answer is ''If you want to call God a Leprechaun because he is identical to Good then go right ahead'' since presumably he is indistinguishable from God.

But then and here is the rub..........Leprechauns are multiple.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And the brain scans of Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Shintoists and Voudon and Pagans and so on .... do they differ?

I don't know but i'm sure we can find out.

[Outrider]

I don't know if this helps but folks have pondered a version of a Leprechaun which was identical to what a Christian would describe as God.

It does help - it leads me to ask you how you'd distinguish between a Leprechaun and a god?

But then and here is the rub..........Leprechauns are multiple.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit (and, arguably, Satan) and the gods of whom Yahweh is jealous. Vishnu, Shiva et al. Ameratsu Omikami and her associates. Odin, Freya, Balder and the Asgard crew. Zeus and his brood.  Multiplicity doesn't appear to have got in the way of any of the others, why would it inhibit Leprechauns.

O.

[ippy]

I don't know but i'm sure we can find out.

Just a thought Vlad how come you never get a catholic having a vision of Mohamed, or a Muslim having a vision of the virgin Mary?

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It does help - it leads me to ask you how you'd distinguish between a Leprechaun and a god?

Father, Son and Holy Spirit (and, arguably, Satan) and the gods of whom Yahweh is jealous. Vishnu, Shiva et al. Ameratsu Omikami and her associates. Odin, Freya, Balder and the Asgard crew. Zeus and his brood.  Multiplicity doesn't appear to have got in the way of any of the others, why would it inhibit Leprechauns.

O.

Well a leprechaun is a tiny irish chap..........etc. How do you distinguish between God and a packet of sausages or The Gods and a pack of sausages,
I should imagine it's easy with a monotheistic God since I only had one sausage the other day.

A pantheon and a pack of sausages....that is a knottier problem since there are many gods and many sausages so what actually IS the difference?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just a thought Vlad how come you never get a catholic having a vision of Mohamed, or a Muslim having a vision of the virgin Mary?

ippy

I don't know if it's absolutely impossible. Do Moslems have visions of Mohammed?

[Outrider]

Well a leprechaun is a tiny irish chap..........etc.

To the same extent that 'god' is a guy on a cloud with a lighting bolt...

How do you distinguish between God and a packet of sausages or The Gods and a pack of sausages, I should imagine it's easy with a monotheistic God since I only had one sausage the other day.

I think it's because I can a) track the sausage from pig to plate, should I so desire and b) I can measure a number of characteristics of the sausage. I can't do this for claims of gods.

A pantheon and a pack of sausages....that is a knottier problem since there are many gods and many sausages so what actually IS the difference?

And where is this much vaunted 'monotheism'?

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It does help - it leads me to ask you how you'd distinguish between a Leprechaun and a god?

Father, Son and Holy Spirit (and, arguably, Satan) and the gods of whom Yahweh is jealous. Vishnu, Shiva et al. Ameratsu Omikami and her associates. Odin, Freya, Balder and the Asgard crew. Zeus and his brood.  Multiplicity doesn't appear to have got in the way of any of the others, why would it inhibit Leprechauns.

O.

A pantheon is not the same as a monotheon though is it.

In practice there was a world of difference between the greek pantheon and Plato's the one, or Aristotle's prime mover. The greek gods were lads and Lasses on a spree...not unlike leprechaun's I guess.

Keith Ward's God A guide for the perplexed is great on comparative religion and far more respectful of the gods and belief in them then I can muster.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

To the same extent that 'god' is a guy on a cloud with a lighting bolt...

I think it's because I can a) track the sausage from pig to plate, should I so desire and b) I can measure a number of characteristics of the sausage. I can't do this for claims of gods.

And where is this much vaunted 'monotheism'?

O.

Again we have to look at how God's are being believed.
In my book therefore tales of carousing and shagging on mount Olympus are about as religiously edifying as tales of carousing and shagging at a New Atheist convention i.e. not very.

Claiming not to be able to compare the claims of the various Gods is pretentious nonsense.

You can equate God with being an old man with a white beard if you wish, In fact going back to the brain scan comparisons between the religious and atheists it seems you may be bound to.

[Outrider]

A pantheon is not the same as a monotheon though is it.

How can I tell?

In practice there was a world of difference between the greek pantheon and Plato's the one, or Aristotle's prime mover.

Are they different things, or merely the same lack of light shining on different surfaces?

The greek gods were lads and Lasses on a spree...not unlike leprechaun's I guess.

And that invalidates their relevance how?

Keith Ward's God A guide for the perplexed is great on comparative religion and far more respectful of the gods and belief in them then I can muster.

I'm an equal opportunities disrepecter, it turns out. Ward's guide, though, from memory, fails to actually guide. He does the history quite well, but never actually manages to justify any claims about gods, or to guide anybody to a decision about them, he just makes the historical point that lots of people throughout history have gone looking.

O.

[Outrider]

Again we have to look at how God's are being believed.

Why do we? Sure how we believe in it, if we do, doesn't change what it actually is or isn't?

In my book therefore tales of carousing and shagging on mount Olympus are about as religiously edifying as tales of carousing and shagging at a New Atheist convention i.e. not very.

So they're not valid as depictions of gods because you don't like them? So does the billion or so feelings of distaste that the Muslim world has for the Christian idea of Jesus as an avatar of Yahweh invalidate that claim?

Claiming not to be able to compare the claims of the various Gods is pretentious nonsense.

I can compare them all day long. What I can't do is validate any of them.

You can equate God with being an old man with a white beard if you wish, In fact going back to the brain scan comparisons between the religious and atheists it seems you may be bound to.

Maybe, and you may be bound to some other more ephemeral, 'spiritual' or emotional sensation, but none of that validates any of the claims, either.

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Well a leprechaun is a tiny irish chap.........

Oh dear. You’re still struggling with the idea of an analogy then.

“Leprechaun” is a faith belief in the supernatural that sometimes has various physical characteristics ascribed to it.

“God” is a faith belief in the supernatural that sometimes has various physical characteristics ascribed to it.

What those characteristics happen to be for each and whether you happen to like or dislike them though tells you nothing about the robustness or otherwise of the arguments that led to these conclusions.

As you seem determined to stay silent on the question you were actually asked though (ie, why one person’s faith belief has any epistemic value for anyone else) I’ll take it that you think it doesn’t. 

[Sebastian Toe]

You can equate God with being an old man with a white beard if you wish,

Why would anyone, anyone at all, equate God as an old man with a white beard?
Is/was there some atheist conspiracy in the past which dictated that he should look like that perhaps?
Or is there another reason?
Careful now!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So they're not valid as depictions of gods because you don't like them?
O.

Not at all. But if they are like that and that is all they do then they are nearer to just being us than Plato's the one who can in no ways be approached intellectually in the same way as say, the bloke two doors down.
One has to ask in what way are they divine?

Also if the shagging and carousing is a metaphor, what is it a metaphor of?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Oh dear. You’re still struggling with the idea of an analogy then.

“Leprechaun” is a faith belief in the supernatural that sometimes has various physical characteristics ascribed to it.

“God” is a faith belief in the supernatural that sometimes has various physical characteristics ascribed to it.

But that's not where the description of either ends is it Hillside?

[Outrider]

Not at all. But if they are like that and that is all they do then they are nearer to just being us than Plato's the one who can in no ways be approached intellectually in the same way as say, the bloke two doors down.

So it's a requirement of divinity that gods be dull? Incomprehensible in motivation and purpose?

One has to ask in what way are they divine?

Their magical ability to bypass physics and simply will existence into conformity with their desires.

Also if the shagging and carousing is a metaphor, what is it a metaphor of?

Why does it have to be a metaphor? Why can't it just be that gods, like people, have motivation? If we are made in the Christian god's image then why does the Christian depiction of that god appear to inhuman?

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

But that's not where the description of either ends is it Hillside?

For this purpose, the descriptions are the "ends". And the question (yet again) was about why one person’s faith belief has any epistemic value for anyone else. If your answer is, "it hasn't" then why not just say so?