Faith vs blind faith

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

And my contention is that for all the debate what is actually going on for several is that people are goddodging and therefore have an inkling of what it is they are dodging. St Augustine was one such person who worked out that all his explorations amounted to, yes, Goddodging.

But your “contention” completely ignores the rebuttal of it you were just given. Again: if you want to charge someone with “dodging” something, you have to demonstrate first the thing you think they’re dodging.

Why is this so difficult for you?
 

Now I'm sure there will be people who will be running but never turning during their lifetime. There may be people who actually acknowledge that they are Goddodging. There may even be people who never realise that is what they are doing.

There may be people who have made such a big case for themselves against God they would prefer any fate except admitting they were wrong.

But all that is needed is demonstrating that the only object they have in the question of God is not the science or the philosophy but just God.

Er, no. All that would be necessary would be to demonstrate initially your premise that there is a god to be dodged. Until and unless you can do that then “goddodging” is no more valid an accusation than “leprechaun dodging”. 

Acceptance of simulated universe and denial of ID is that demonstration.

And he finishes in a heap of incoherence.

Oh well - blind faith it is then.

[Outrider]

Sounds like you might be dodging God by raising a desperate objection there.

Sounds like you might be falling somewhere between teleology and post-hoc rationalisations (from your believers perspective, of course) and misattributing a failure to accept unevidenced assertions.

What about those who abandon religion on those grounds but not God?

What about them? They're an example of the sort of apparently harmless innocuous situations that allow more immediately harmful ideas to survive: each of those 'non-religious believers' and 'spiritual but not religious' and 'non-threatening Christians' and 'modern Muslims' is a veneer of respectability that religion waves with one hand to hide behind whilst the other plants bombs and subjugates women and ethnic groups and slaps down scientific research...

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

What about those who abandon religion on those grounds but not God?

More begging the question? Seriously though?

You can no more accuse someone of "abandoning God" than you can of "dodging" God" until and unless you can demonstrate first a god to be abandoned/dodged. The most you could say is that they abandoned their belief in "God", regardless of what your blind faith tells you. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sounds like you might be falling somewhere between teleology and post-hoc rationalisations (from your believers perspective, of course) and misattributing a failure to accept unevidenced assertions.

Doesn't quite fit in the case of acceptance of Simulated universe as a hypothesis and rejecting ID because it has that God bloke in it.....Does it?

What is the only thing we are trying to avoid here? God, of course.

[Outrider]

Doesn't quite fit in the case of acceptance of Simulated universe as a hypothesis and rejecting ID because it has that God bloke in it.....Does it?

Yes. As I've explained, Intelligent Design makes claims above and beyond those of the simulated universe.

What is the only thing we are trying to avoid here? God, of course.

Error.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

More begging the question? Seriously though?

You can no more accuse someone of "abandoning God" than you can of "dodging" God" until and unless you can demonstrate first a god to be abandoned/dodged. The most you could say is that they abandoned their belief in "God", regardless of what your blind faith tells you.

If all that were true.
What business do you have dodging God in special pleading against him?

This is similar to another question asked of you.  If nothing is substantially actually Good or bad, what are you doing dicking around using those terms?

[ippy]

You mean like whether someone is Goddodging or knows he's Goddodging are two different matters.

Funny experience you know Vlad, the wind was blowing these invisible non-existent boulders along the path I was walking with my dog the other day, I found it so difficult to avoid them, 'as you can imagine'.

None of the non-existent invisible boulders hit me so I must have been very good at non-existent boulder dodging, don't you think, Vlad? 

I asked A B if he'd looked up the word 'fantasy' in a good dictionary yet, it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to look up fantasy as well Vlad, mind you, you must be quite familiar with fantasy already I suppose?

ippy

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Doesn't quite fit in the case of acceptance of Simulated universe as a hypothesis and rejecting ID because it has that God bloke in it.....Does it?

What is the only thing we are trying to avoid here? God, of course.

You're utterly confused. Suggest you try some reading before imploding again.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Funny experience you know Vlad, the wind was blowing these invisible non-existent boulders

Let me stop you there, Joe...
If they were invisible how do you know they were boulders?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

If all that were true.
What business do you have dodging God in special pleading against him?

Desperate, desperate stuff. There's no "special pleading", just logic and reason, and it's not against "Him", it's against the assertions and arguments you attempt to demonstrate that there is a "Him".

This is similar to another question asked of you.  If nothing is substantially actually Good or bad, what are you doing dicking around using those terms?

Perhaps if you stopped lying you might actually learn something? No-one says that there isn't "substantially" good and bad (whatever that means), just that there's no reason to think there's absolutely good and bad (which is what your "magic morality somehow just floating about out there" conjecture entails).

Jeez but you struggle.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Let me stop you there, Joe...
If they were invisible how do you know they were boulders?

Faith. Why don't you believe him then?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Desperate, desperate stuff. There's no "special pleading", just logic and reason,

In the case of simulated universe and ID there is special pleading.

I'm afraid a far greater Antitheist than your self PZ Myers already recognises the danger of what Dr DG Tyson is proposing to the cause. In otherwords acceptance of simulated universe means New Atheism is untenable.

Expect a railing back on work on multiverses and simulated universe among antitheistically motivated scientists.

You've had a shock today guys I know......and a lot has got to sink in. But anyway chosing to extract New atheism from the predicament can only be seen as further Goddodging.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Faith. Why don't you believe him then?

I haven't declared what my belief on the matter is.........your trouble Hillside is that you don't pay sufficient attention.

[ippy]

Let me stop you there, Joe...
If they were invisible how do you know they were boulders?

Some idiot said I was invisible non-existent boulder dodging, you know I found it very difficult to think what on Earth was he thinking about, perhaps he was a few coppers short of shilling, he was certainly very odd.

Thanks for asking Vlad.

Regards ippy

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

In the case of simulated universe and ID there is special pleading.

I'm afraid a far greater Antitheist than your self PZ Myers already recognises the danger of what Dr DG Tyson is proposing to the cause. In otherwords acceptance of simulated means New Atheism is untenable.

Expect a railing back on work on multiverses and simulated universe among antitheistically motivated scientists.

You've had a shock today guys I know......and a lot has got to sink in. But anyway chosen to extract New atheism from the predicament can only be seen as further Goddodging.

So much idiocy in so few words...

Your problem here isn't so much your relentless trolling as, well, that you're just not very good at it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Some idiot said I was invisible non-existent boulder dodging,

If it was invisible, how do you know it was a boulder?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

So much idiocy in so few words...

Your problem here isn't so much your relentless trolling as, well, that you're just not very good at it.

Simulated universes idiocy? Not idiotic enough for Dr Neil De Grasse Tyson( whose repute is endorsed by no less than Shaker) to propose them and for PZ Myers to get worked up over?

It's too late, the genii is out of the bottle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Some idiot said I was invisible non-existent boulder dodging

Weally?Twuly?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Some debaters seem to be arguing that antitheist arguments are irreducible and cannot be reduced down to arguments which just involve God.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

What about them? They're an example of the sort of apparently harmless innocuous situations that allow more immediately harmful ideas to survive: each of those 'non-religious believers' and 'spiritual but not religious' and 'non-threatening Christians' and 'modern Muslims' is a veneer of respectability that religion waves with one hand to hide behind whilst the other plants bombs and subjugates women and ethnic groups and slaps down scientific research...

O.

Your blind faith in religion having two hands is certainly a fascinating picture. In your blind faith, are the two hands connected to one brain? Your fervour certainly seems to help you create vivid images - maybe you find these beliefs helpful to you in some way.   

[ippy]

If it was invisible, how do you know it was a boulder?

I didn't know if there were any boulders Vlad but when you get a nutter telling you that you have to dodge invisible non-existent boulders it's a good idea to humour them, you know, you then say things like, 'yes of course they exist' and then pretend to believe the poor deluded fellow, that kept on asserting things he couldn't possibly know anything about.

Even though you know he's talking out of the other end, (I in put the lavatorial bit specially for you Vlad).

Kind regards ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I didn't know if there were any boulders Vlad but when you get a nutter telling you that you have to dodge invisible non-existent boulders it's a good idea to humour them, you know, you then say things like, 'yes of course they exist' and then pretend to believe the poor deluded fellow, that kept on asserting things he couldn't possibly know anything about.

Even though you know he's talking out of the other end, (I in put the lavatorial bit specially for you Vlad).

Kind regards ippy

Josef.

Are you calling me a nutter?

[Outrider]

Your blind faith in religion having two hands is certainly a fascinating picture.

Was the metaphor a bit too much for you?

In your blind faith, are the two hands connected to one brain?

We're talking about religion, I'm waiting to see evidence that they're attached to any sort of rational processing.

Your fervour certainly seems to help you create vivid images - maybe you find these beliefs helpful to you in some way.

I'm glad my florid vocabulary brightens your day. I don't find these conclusions helpful, I find them worrying... that's why I continue to raise them.

O.

[ippy]

Josef.

Are you calling me a nutter?

That's not allowed by the forum Vlad.

ippy

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Was the metaphor a bit too much for you?

I found it very interesting. Always happy to learn. So about these 2 hands that you brought up...as a "metaphor" -  how are they connected or is it part of your blind faith that they are 2 disembodied hands that aren't connected? You must have picked hands in your imagery for a reason - or was it just a random guess? Could the metaphor have just as easily been 2 dogs wagging their tails?