Author Topic: Faith vs blind faith  (Read 88183 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #575 on: October 13, 2017, 04:45:10 PM »
Outy,

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That's my take on it, but it doesn't hurt to presume that he at least thinks there's something else. One of us is wrong, I suspect that it's him, and I keep giving him the opportunity to demonstrate that there's more to it than I can see.

There isn’t, and he never will. Happy to bet a fiver on it if anyone thinks otherwise though  ;)
 
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I'm far from perfect…

Ooh I dunno…

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I can't really complain if other people aren't. And, of course, I've been away for quite a while, so I'm still getting back into the swing of it again. Maybe I'll be a little less forgiving in six months time...

You will be. The complaint isn’t that he’s less than perfect, but rather that no matter what you say he’ll then either re-state it as something else or carry on as if it hadn’t been said at all (SU vs theism, “comparing god with leprechauns” etc).   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #576 on: October 13, 2017, 04:53:16 PM »
But you are already making an unevidenced leap, in other words assuming that the historical Jesus is somehow God. There is no evidence for that so let's sticky to the actual point.

Comparing Leprechauns with God - seems to me that both are pretty well equivalent in terms of the credible evidence for their existence.
But We weren't talking about Jesus being God. Bringing that up is a red herring designed for you to avoid there being no historical Leprechauns. And if there are no historical leprechauns then that puts the Kybosh on your argument.
 
Ducky, Divey, God avoidance IMHO.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 05:00:09 PM by 'andles for forks »

SusanDoris

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #577 on: October 13, 2017, 05:00:04 PM »
Thanks NS.

Susan - I can certainly see how that might have been the experience when you were young.

If we're talking only about personal experience, when I was young it was different - in middle-class London lots of the people I went to school with were atheists. We, the atheists - mostly led by me - used to have regular discussions in the sixth-form common room challenging the beliefs of theists.

Having ridiculed theist beliefs myself, I was somewhat wary of becoming a theist a few years later, knowing I was going to be ridiculed since even more people were proclaiming themselves atheist plus most of my friends were atheists. I guess my need for certainty and my fear of ridicule reduced once I stopped being a teenager, and it seems the older I get the less I need certainty, but I feel happier - partly because I accomplish a lot more goals because of the additional structure, self-control, balance, community feeling and values I get from practising my religion. If it turns out I'm wrong about God, I'm not bothered. If there is no after life - no problem - would be a relief actually. But my personal experience both from having been an atheist and from those times when my faith and practice is weak, is that believing in God and an after life and practising my religion helps me live what I feel is a more balanced, less destructive or materialistic life - so I don't intend to give up those beliefs and practices.
Thank you for your reply. If you totally lacked belief in any God, i.e. you were an atheist, how did you come to believe, or what was said to you, that encouraged you to believe that such a myth could exist? If you knew before hand that there are no God/god/s, how did you convince yourself that there was?
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #578 on: October 13, 2017, 05:34:20 PM »
Vlad,

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But We weren't talking about Jesus being God. Bringing that up is a red herring designed for you to avoid there being no historical Leprechauns. And if there are no historical leprechauns then that puts the Kybosh on your argument.
 
Ducky, Divey, God avoidance IMHO.

Oh dear.

Proposition 1: Supernatural Jesus.

Proposition 2: Supernatural leprechauns.

Supporting arguments for each: the same.

Knock yourself out.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #579 on: October 13, 2017, 05:54:34 PM »
But We weren't talking about Jesus being God.
Then why bring up the notion of the historical Jesus - if you think he's just a man like everyone else then comparing him to Leprechauns (mythical creatures) is bizarre. So the only reason why you might bring the historical Jesus into the conversation would be if you were making a point along the lines of 'you can't compare Leprechauns to God because there is no equivalent of the historical Jesus (who is God) for Leprechauns'. You are making a completely unsubstantiated assumption re: historical Jesus and God - otherwise your comment is non-sensical.

Either way your thinking and arguments are woefully off the mark.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 07:50:32 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #580 on: October 13, 2017, 06:11:02 PM »
Then why bring up the notion of the historical Jesus - if you think he's just a man like everyone else then comparing him to Leprechauns (mythical creatures) is bizarre. So the only reason why you might bring the historical Jesus into the conversation would be if you were making a point along the lines of 'you can't compare Leprechauns to God because there is no equivalent of the historical Jesus (who is God) for Leprechauns'. You are making a completely unsubstantiated assumption re: historical Jesus and God - otherwise your comment is non-sensical.

Either way your thinking and arguments are woefully of the mark.
I'm not saying let's not discuss Jesus being God. I am against rapidly bringing it in as a red herring to avoid the answer to the question are Leprechauns historical in the same sense that Jesus is historical?

Leprechauns are not historical. Therefore we are dealing with a myth. Jesus probably is historical and he claims to be the unique son of God.
In that respect we are back down to Lewis's trilemma. He is either Mad, bad or The son of God. He either thinks he's the son of God, or is passing himself of as the son of God or he is the son of God

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #581 on: October 13, 2017, 06:15:32 PM »
Jesus probably is historical and he claims to be the unique son of God.
In that respect we are back down to Lewis's trilemma. He is either Mad, bad or The son of God. He either thinks he's the son of God, or is passing himself of as the son of God or he is the son of God
Are you seriously expecting us to believe that in your years on this forum you've not encountered all those times where Lewis's woeful pseudo-argument has been skinned, boned and gutted?

Really really really?

The forum has a search function. To avoid other people wasting their time I suggest you use it - 'trilemma' would be the obvious place to start.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #582 on: October 13, 2017, 06:20:06 PM »
I'm not saying let's not discuss Jesus being God. I am against rapidly bringing it in as a red herring to avoid the answer to the question are Leprechauns historical in the same sense that Jesus is historical?

Leprechauns are not historical. Therefore we are dealing with a myth. Jesus probably is historical and he claims to be the unique son of God.
In that respect we are back down to Lewis's trilemma. He is either Mad, bad or The son of God. He either thinks he's the son of God, or is passing himself of as the son of God or he is the son of God

And again Jesus as the son of god isn't historical. So you are now denyingyourown position.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #583 on: October 13, 2017, 06:24:03 PM »
Vlad,

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I'm not saying let's not discuss Jesus being God. I am against rapidly bringing it in as a red herring to avoid the answer to the question are Leprechauns historical in the same sense that Jesus is historical?

The extent to which the “historical Jesus” is more or less folkloric than leprechauns is moot but, either way, it’s entirely beside the point - ie, an actual red herring. 

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Leprechauns are not historical. Therefore we are dealing with a myth. Jesus probably is historical…

But only probably. Or maybe only possibly. So?

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…and he claims to be the unique son of God.

Again, so?

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In that respect we are back down to Lewis's trilemma. He is either Mad, bad or The son of God. He either thinks he's the son of God, or is passing himself of as the son of God or he is the son of God

And again, that has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.

So, back to the same argument leading with equal facility to the supernatural Jesus and to supernatural leprechauns...

...any comment? 
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #584 on: October 13, 2017, 06:42:55 PM »
Vlad,

The extent to which the “historical Jesus” is more or less folkloric than leprechauns is moot but, either way, it’s entirely beside the point - ie, an actual red herring. 

But only probably. Or maybe only possibly. So?

Again, so?

And again, that has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.

So, back to the same argument leading with equal facility to the supernatural Jesus and to supernatural leprechauns...

...any comment?
Are you accepting that Leprechauns are mythological? Are you saying that Leprechauns still exist but are merely supernatural?
Now that leprechauns never were little irish men at the ends of rainbows how do you propose to continue the appeal to ridicule?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #585 on: October 13, 2017, 07:47:59 PM »
Leprechauns are not historical. Therefore we are dealing with a myth.
How do you know - are you able to prove that Leprechauns didn't once exist - surely there are all sorts of reports from the dim and distant past of their existence, which are probable as verifiable and believable as the notion that a person died and came back to life 3 days later.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #586 on: October 13, 2017, 07:52:57 PM »
In that respect we are back down to Lewis's trilemma. He is either Mad, bad or The son of God. He either thinks he's the son of God, or is passing himself of as the son of God or he is the son of God
We should have a Godwin's law for Lewis - anyone using his laughably flawed trilemma as any form of argument should be deemed instantly to have lost that argument so pitifully weak is his argument.

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #587 on: October 13, 2017, 07:57:40 PM »
We should have a Godwin's law for Lewis - anyone using his laughably flawed trilemma as any form of argument should be deemed instantly to have lost that argument so pitifully weak is his argument.
Not at all coincidentally a long post by you, Prof., taking it apart is one of the first results to come up if you search for 'trilemma.'

Vlad however seems disinclined to find out.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #588 on: October 13, 2017, 08:00:13 PM »
If I was asserting something again,why would I say, 'it looks like', it looks like like Social pressure to me, so having stated that I meant social pressure in the same way as anyone else would mean social pressure, you're not telling me that you don't understand what social pressure amounts to?

This is becoming a set of postings about the normal use of everyday English in which I made myself very clear the first time I wrote, we may as well start on about what do you mean about, 'reveal', as it happens I'm not so don't start on that.

Please feel free Gabriella to make what you will of any post of mine I've lost interest.

Ippy
Thanks I will. Looks like either the words "social pressure" popped in your head and you don't know why but you felt compelled to write them in a post, or you think social pressure to be an atheist resulted in me being a theist but the same social pressure made you an atheist.

Oh dear, you do seem to be in a bit of a muddle on this forum. Never mind, maybe a "religious nut" will knock on your door any minute now and you can have a good chuckle to yourself and feel better.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #589 on: October 13, 2017, 08:04:48 PM »
Not at all coincidentally a long post by you, Prof., taking it apart is one of the first results to come up if you search for 'trilemma.'

Vlad however seems disinclined to find out.
Lewis completely ignores that all we know about Jesus is through a lens created by others decades after the event. So 'mistaken', 'misrepresented' and 'exaggerated' are ignored, yet are far more plausible and likely than the lost of 'mad, bad or god' and negate Lewis deceit, being to try to force us to accept Jesus as mad or bad, unless we think he is god. Indeed actually his very premise that people would baulk at thinking Jesus might have been mad or bad (and therefore accept god) is way outdated, relying on a default acceptance of the importance and 'correctness' of Christianity in the UK, which might have been true in the 1950s, but isn't any more.

But then this is a guy who while claiming to be an atheist also claimed at the same time to be angry with god for not existing ???
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:08:16 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #590 on: October 13, 2017, 08:07:44 PM »
Not at all coincidentally a long post by you, Prof., taking it apart is one of the first results to come up if you search for 'trilemma.'

Vlad however seems disinclined to find out.
Anything which has a ringing endorsement from you Shakes is a must see.

............................................couldn't find it.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:17:10 PM by 'andles for forks »

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #591 on: October 13, 2017, 08:23:33 PM »
Anything which has a ringing endorsement from you Shakes is a must see.

............................................couldn't find it.
http://tinyurl.com/yct3aso5

http://tinyurl.com/y7ldxrml

http://tinyurl.com/y82czrtf
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:26:10 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #592 on: October 13, 2017, 08:24:02 PM »
Lewis completely ignores that all we know about Jesus is through a lens created by others decades after the event. So 'mistaken', 'misrepresented' and 'exaggerated' are ignored
Jesus is mistaken he is divine or the son of god then he is still deluded,
He might be being misrepresented but that introduces an alternative Jesus......be my guest.
If Jesus is exaggerating what is he exaggerating and if he is exaggerating he is doing a bad thing.

No Nobel prize for you Professor D.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #593 on: October 13, 2017, 08:29:06 PM »
Jesus is mistaken he is divine or the son of god then he is still deluded,
Nope - because you fail to recognise that we do not know, and indeed probably cannot know, whether Jesus ever claimed to be divine.

Nope, all we know is that people decades later claimed that he was and that he himself claimed to be - that is an entirely different matter. Just because someone claims that someone else claimed something, doesn't mean that someone else actually did ever make that claim.

Decades after the original film many people think that Bogart exclaimed 'play it again, Sam' - he didn't. We know he didn't as we have the original film as evidence. But had that film been lost to us decades ago, we might believe the erroneous claims that he said 'play it again, Sam'.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #594 on: October 13, 2017, 08:29:20 PM »
Gabriella,

How does any belief exist without a “brain processing the inputs and interpreting those inputs” and, if it can’t, where then would that leave beliefs about the supposed inerrant, certain, categoric words of gods?
You'll have to ask the theists who think they are certain about what any supposed God's words mean. As I said before all the theists I know state they are expressing an opinion, and Allah knows best.
       
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So far as I know Harvey Weinstein doesn’t claim to have acted as he did because of the instructions of a god. And in any case, how are they “problems” except in the sense of, “produce outcomes I Gabriella find to be unwelcome”? If any one cleric’s faith belief is only differentiated from another’s according to what you think of the real world effect they have, that’s all about your preferences and nothing about what a god may have decided on the matter.
Whether he claims to have acted on the instructions of norms of the industry, his upbringing or a disease of sex addiction, I still don't hold the whole concept of masculinity responsible for the behaviour of individual men. In the same way I don't hold religion responsible for the behaviour of individual theists.   

I haven't figured out a way to establish what a god may have decided, so I think we can only hold opinions. Guess we will both have to wait until someone who thinks they know what any supposed God wants answers our question about how they established what said God wants.

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That’s a non sequitur. If you want to assert there to be revealed instruction how would you also claim to know what they are if everything’s up for interpretation? And re-interpretation? And then some more re-interpretation after that?

What kind of god would on other words it be who thought, “OK, I’m going to share what my inerrant rules are in some holy books, only I’m not going to give my special creation the means ever to know for sure what they are. Mwa ha haaaar” etc? 

It’s not my theory at all. If someone wants to claim that the inerrant instructions of a god are accurately written in a book, it’s for him I’d have thought to explain how he’s ever know what the correct interpretation of them is. I’d have thought the obvious fudge would be to argue that some things are so plain that no amount of interpretation would change that, but as it’s not my problem it’s not an argument I’d have to attempt.
I don't know what the Christian theory is but my understanding of Islam is that we have a message in the Quran, and the test on which we are judged is how we interpret the message, what our intentions are based on our interpretations, and how we actually behave - in other words we could have good or bad intentions but our actual acts may be different from our intentions as something could happen to prevent us doing what we intended.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #595 on: October 13, 2017, 08:34:07 PM »
http://tinyurl.com/yct3aso5

http://tinyurl.com/y7ldxrml
.
http://tinyurl.com/y82czrtf
I'm afraid all I see is ''rant''. Yes Davey does make the point one can reject that Jesus claimed to be divine and was not crucified for blasphemy but that requires an alternative Jesus who doesn't change the subsequent history in anyway. It needs to explain the fuss over Jesus. Jesus myth is not new. It is fringe.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #596 on: October 13, 2017, 08:48:32 PM »
I'm afraid all I see is ''rant''. Yes Davey does make the point one can reject that Jesus claimed to be divine and was not crucified for blasphemy but that requires an alternative Jesus who doesn't change the subsequent history in anyway. It needs to explain the fuss over Jesus. Jesus myth is not new. It is fringe.
What fuss - there was no contemporary fuss. Most people living in Palestine at the time of Jesus' life and death weren't persuaded that he was special and the son of god - hence the fact that Christianity (pretty well uniquely amongst religions) failed to gain a significant foothold in the place where it arose.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #597 on: October 13, 2017, 08:50:48 PM »
My understanding of the Muslim position is that Muslims don't believe that Jesus claimed to be divine but do regard Jesus as a prophet/ messenger.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #598 on: October 14, 2017, 12:13:51 AM »
I'm afraid all I see is ''rant''.
... which in itself is an open admission of how divorced from reality you are. In the list of those on the forum least likely to rant, the Prof. is near the top.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #599 on: October 14, 2017, 08:25:34 AM »
I'm afraid all I see is ''rant''. Yes Davey does make the point one can reject that Jesus claimed to be divine and was not crucified for blasphemy but that requires an alternative Jesus who doesn't change the subsequent history in anyway. It needs to explain the fuss over Jesus. Jesus myth is not new. It is fringe.

What about the fuss over that chap Mohammed?