Author Topic: Faith vs blind faith  (Read 88306 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #650 on: October 15, 2017, 11:56:39 AM »
Gabriella,

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It works for various Muslims, even if it doesn't work for you. Much like interpreting law there is a base text and the words are interpreted. It doesn't mean that the meaning can be anything - there is usually broadly agreed consensus on the meaning but you can have dissenting opinions. And it is always possible that individuals can apply a verse to a situation where they would need to make all kinds of assumptions and provisos to make it fit - you can't stop someone from having a punt. The Quran is an inspiring (to Muslims) message but like legal statutes there are no guarantees that the person interpreting the message has understood correctly and often the people who drafted the law are long dead so cannot be consulted on what they meant. The Quran is much less specific or detailed than statutes and like anything made up of sentences in verse for, it requires interpretation . The Quran might not work for you as a source of inspiration and guidance - fair enough.

If you are interested this article may shed some light ( extract quoted below):

https://muslimmatters.org/2011/06/28/saying-“i-don’t-know”-is-half-of-knowledge/

Imam Malik ibn Anas was one of the most respected scholars of fiqh who ever lived. Once a man came to Imam Malik from a very far distance and he asked him 40 questions. Imam Malik only answered four of them and for the rest of the 36 questions he replied, “I don’t know.”

The man was surprised and asked Imam Malik “what should I tell people about these 36 questions for which you said (I don’t know)?” Imam Malik replied that the man should tell the people that Malik says: “I don’t know,” “I don’t know,” “I don’t know.”

Imam Malik said this 3 times....

....I really feel apprehensive when people issue such fatawa without having adequate knowledge about Arabic grammar, the principles of fiqh, usool ul hadeeth, etc. Before issuing any fatwa, or any judgment for that matter, one must know the related principles and modalities. Issues that appear very simple are often times surprisingly grave, especially when we consider the implications of changing them. Let me give an example with the following ayah of the Quran in which Allah (SWT) says:

 “ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتُواْ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَٱرۡكَعُواْ مَعَ ٱلرَّٲكِعِينَ وَأَقِيمُواْ ”

“And establish prayer, and give the zakaah, and bow down with those who bow down”

Surah Al-Baqarah: vs. 43

Anyone who has even a basic understanding of Arabic grammar would know that the verb أَقِيمُواْ in the above verse is a fi’l amr, which is used for a command, and whenever such a verb is used it is an obligation to act upon it. From this ayah, the scholars interpret that salaah is obligatory, as the ayah clearly says:

وَأَقِيمُواْ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ

And establish the prayer…

And according to the same ayah, zakaat is also obligatory as the ayah says:

تُواْ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَوَءَا

And give the zakaah…

Furthermore, we learn that salaah with jama’ah is also obligatory as the ayah says:

وَٱرۡكَعُواْ مَعَ ٱلرَّٲكِعِينَ

And bow down with those who bow down

Now a question arises here. Do we interpret from this ayah that it is obligatory to offer sunnah, nawaafil and witr in jama’ah also? Since the ayah itself does not seem to indicate any exception. I doubt that any of us would think that it is mandatory to offer sunnah in jama’ah. So why is there a difference?

First, the comparison of religious texts with legal instruments is a false one. For the former, no-one doubts that the legislators existed at all and (depending on the jurisdiction involved) that their laws should be be enacted and enforced. None of that though applies to religious texts, at least until and unless someone can demonstrate the lawmaker to be a fact rather than a faith belief.     

Second, lots of beliefs in lots of things “work” for lots of people. We were discussing though the epistemology of thinking that some texts are authored divinely and are therefore inerrant. If you want to treat the “holy” text that inspires you as others treat the works of, say, Plato or Sophocles that’s fine. Perhaps they’re interesting, perhaps they help you think, perhaps they provide ideas and guidance you find to have practical use. You are though entirely unencumbered by the notion that you can’t disagree with them, reject them entirely, move on to other texts that seem more coherent or logical to you. You have in other words no concerns about the supposedly divine status of the author.

Now compare that with your relationship with the Quran. Do you see the difference?     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #651 on: October 15, 2017, 11:57:26 AM »
but the reasons why bad things happen didn't require convoluted, dancing on the head of a pin-type arguments that those that believe in a loving god need to engage in.
.
I don't think you could have read Hillside on morality then.
I can see no evidence for anything other than all have fallen short. Some people may call that pessimistic but it's not nearly as self righteous as ''Religion, root of all evil'' (grudging and butt covering question mark added)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #652 on: October 15, 2017, 11:58:43 AM »
I'm absolutely sure that you can't, though true to form that won't stop Vlad trying it on anyway. It's a matter of surprise to me that he didn't mention secular humanism. He usually does.
The disaster of Brexit is pretty well the biggest challenge facing the country.

Now I've not seen polling done on this (there may be - I will look), but I would suspect that the atheist population would be disproportionately Remain - not least because atheists tend to be demographically younger and better educated than the benchmark, and those groups were also much more likely to vote remain.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #653 on: October 15, 2017, 12:00:05 PM »
You introduced the concept of 'better' - 'wrong' is a state not as good as the situation that you claim obtains now. It's not usually a problematic concept.

Which was what?
I introduced the concept of better because it's an improvement on what I was doing before but to me it doesn't follow that what I was doing was wrong.

For example when I wanted excitement, freedom and a sense of risk and recklessness I drank shots of whiskey. Much as I enjoyed that from the age of 17 I figured I should stop because there was other stuff - less exciting but probably more stable and what I thought was character-building or better for me  - that I could focus on if I wasn't distracted by alcohol and it's effects/ consequences. As Prof Davy said all our situations are individual.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #654 on: October 15, 2017, 12:00:48 PM »
Gabriella,

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Following Islamic practice doesn't work for me without putting God into it - I don't get the beneficial effect I am afterwithout putting God into it. Annoying but like I said, the benefits for me outweigh the annoyance. I feel I manage my life better now than I did as an atheist and the sense of direction and structure and the way belief changes my responses in certain situations is part of the reason why I manage my life better.

No doubt, but a belief "working" for you tells you not one thing about whether the object of that belief is real.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #655 on: October 15, 2017, 12:02:02 PM »
Vlad,

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I can see no evidence for anything other than all have fallen short.

"Fallen short" of what?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #656 on: October 15, 2017, 12:03:48 PM »
I don't think you could have read Hillside on morality then.
I can see no evidence for anything other than all have fallen short. Some people may call that pessimistic but it's not nearly as self righteous as ''Religion, root of all evil'' (grudging and butt covering question mark added)
Except nobody argues that.

Do they, Vlad?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #657 on: October 15, 2017, 12:04:53 PM »
Hm, looks like it. Iraq war, hundreds of thousands dead or maimed, stripping the disabled of benefits ... critical to their work indeed.
Which brings us nicely to Stalin or Pol Pot Of course the thing is, not only did Stalin sanction atrocities but he had to have thousands upon thousands of littler atheists to help him.

Unfortunately May didn't have the same luxury of loads of little Christians helping her because we are now and increasingly a secular state.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #658 on: October 15, 2017, 12:05:56 PM »
The disaster of Brexit is pretty well the biggest challenge facing the country.

Now I've not seen polling done on this (there may be - I will look), but I would suspect that the atheist population would be disproportionately Remain - not least because atheists tend to be demographically younger and better educated than the benchmark, and those groups were also much more likely to vote remain.
Well that didn't take long:

http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/how-religious-groups-voted-at-the-2016-referendum-on-britains-eu-membership/

Although this study didn't specifically ask about atheism, it includes a no religion group, which was disproportionately Remain, by 57% to 43%. No Christian group came close to this level of Remain support, and the big block of CoE/Anglicans were overwhelmingly Leave (60% to 40%). Muslims were the only religious group to be substantially Remain, but their numbers are pretty small so unlikely to sway a vote.

So you can conclude that the nightmare of Brexit may be laid squarely at the door of Christians overall, and CofE in particular.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #659 on: October 15, 2017, 12:08:16 PM »
Vlad,

"Fallen short" of what?
Exactly my thought.

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #660 on: October 15, 2017, 12:09:27 PM »
Which brings us nicely to Stalin or Pol Pot Of course the thing is, not only did Stalin sanction atrocities but he had to have thousands upon thousands of littler atheists to help him.
Now of course you have to demonstrate, showing your working, that Uncle Joe's little helpers did what they did because of or in the name of atheism rather than for other reasons (prominent amongst said reasons being not being kidnapped and/or tortured and/or worked to death and/or summarily executed by Uncle Joe).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #661 on: October 15, 2017, 12:09:55 PM »
Except nobody argues that.
Dream on. Can I help it if antitheists don't have the balls not to put a question mark at the end?

Of course they do. Pinker and Dawkins amongst others can't go on enough about 'The enlightenment' forgetting it's greed for resources, the caning of the environment and most recently Pinkerism and Dawkinisms has tickled the balls of social Darwinism.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #662 on: October 15, 2017, 12:11:34 PM »
Exactly my thought.
Don't be soft this is hardly a world where everyone has done the right thing.

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #663 on: October 15, 2017, 12:12:32 PM »
Dream on.
I'll have to, since you can't seem to provide a single instance/example or name of anyone who says that religion is the root of all evil.

I can however point you in the direction of at least one prominent atheist who finds the idea of religion as the root of all evil as absurd.

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Can I help it if antitheists don't have the balls not to put a question mark at the end?
You can't seem to help making stupid assertions that you can't substantiate with evidence. Repeatedly.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #664 on: October 15, 2017, 12:12:51 PM »
Don't be soft this is hardly a world where everyone has done the right thing.
Right thing according to what?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #665 on: October 15, 2017, 12:14:53 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Which brings us nicely to Stalin or Pol Pot Of course the thing is, not only did Stalin sanction atrocities but he had to have thousands upon thousands of littler atheists to help him.

Unfortunately May didn't have the same luxury of loads of little Christians helping her because we are now and increasingly a secular state.

He also had thousands upon thousands of little moustache wearers, vodka drinkers and, for all I know, vegetarians to help him. Any special reason for you identifying just the sub-set who didn't believe in gods for your casual slur?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #666 on: October 15, 2017, 12:16:40 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Don't be soft this is hardly a world where everyone has done the right thing.

"The right thing" according to whom?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #667 on: October 15, 2017, 12:21:55 PM »
Vlad,

"The right thing" according to whom?
According to the outcomes Hillside. God knows Antitheists aren't averse to pointing to those when religious evil is pointed out, you among them. To argue that only the religious have got it wrong is the
Rudolf Nuryev and margot Fonteyn of humbug positions.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #668 on: October 15, 2017, 12:22:00 PM »
Which brings us nicely to Stalin or Pol Pot Of course the thing is, not only did Stalin sanction atrocities but he had to have thousands upon thousands of littler atheists to help him.
Indeed they did - but their defining dogma wasn't atheism but totalitarian marxism. And part of that totalitarianism is denial of consensual choice about religion, so many of those 'littler atheists' as you call them may not have been atheists at all, but were required to pretend they were for threat of death or incarceration were they to suggest otherwise. And that cuts both ways - ask quietly and confidentially and 5% of the population in Saudi Arabia say they are atheist - they are unlikely to admit this publicly as the may be thrown in jail or even executed.

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #669 on: October 15, 2017, 12:25:08 PM »
Indeed they did - but their defining dogma wasn't atheism but totalitarian marxism. And part of that totalitarianism is denial of consensual choice about religion, so many of those 'littler atheists' as you call them may not have been atheists at all, but were required to pretend they were for threat of death or incarceration were they to suggest otherwise.
Wouldn't the much-vaunted (but actually considerably exaggerated and as it turns out temporary) bounce-back of religious adherence after the fall of Soviet communism bear this out?

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And that cuts both ways - ask quietly and confidentially and 5% of the population in Saudi Arabia say they are atheist - they are unlikely to admit this publicly as the may be thrown in jail or even executed.
I thought there was "no compulsion in religion"?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 12:27:37 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #670 on: October 15, 2017, 12:27:05 PM »
Well that didn't take long:

http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/how-religious-groups-voted-at-the-2016-referendum-on-britains-eu-membership/

Although this study didn't specifically ask about atheism, it includes a no religion group, which was disproportionately Remain, by 57% to 43%. No Christian group came close to this level of Remain support, and the big block of CoE/Anglicans were overwhelmingly Leave (60% to 40%). Muslims were the only religious group to be substantially Remain, but their numbers are pretty small so unlikely to sway a vote.

So you can conclude that the nightmare of Brexit may be laid squarely at the door of Christians overall, and CofE in particular.
Older people are more likely to claim CofE. I understand Dawkins and Copson recognise that and there is a campaign to stop them just putting CofE.

That doesn't apply to young people,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, of whom only 36% voted in the referenderum.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #671 on: October 15, 2017, 12:28:32 PM »
Vlad,

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According to the outcomes Hillside.

But who gets to decide which outcomes are “the right thing”? You’re just kicking the can down the road here. 

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God knows…

Who?

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…Antitheists aren't averse to pointing to those when religious evil is pointed out, you among them. To argue that only the religious have got it wrong is the
Rudolf Nuryev and margot Fonteyn of humbug positions.

It’s also a straw man. There’s no problem with arguing right and wrong provided there’s no appeal to certainty or absolutism.

So again, fallen short of what exactly?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #672 on: October 15, 2017, 12:31:33 PM »
That doesn't apply to young people,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, of whom only 36% voted in the referenderum.
If you are going to throw around figures - at least get them right.

The referendum turnout for the 18-24 age group was 64%.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #673 on: October 15, 2017, 12:34:34 PM »
Older people are more likely to claim CofE. I understand Dawkins and Copson recognise that and there is a campaign to stop them just putting CofE.
Putting CofE on what?

What campaign?

Shaker

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Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #674 on: October 15, 2017, 12:36:47 PM »
Putting CofE on what?
Any kind of official form that asks for religious affiliation, I guess. Though I can't say that I can recall the last time this happened to me ... if ever. I've just been in hospital and it was never asked or mentioned at any time.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.