Author Topic: Faith vs blind faith  (Read 99699 times)

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19724
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #900 on: October 20, 2017, 01:16:00 PM »

Gabriella,

Quote
No I keep coming back to what I learned when I did a law degree - that when Parliament drafts laws they can't make them too specific as it would mean having to draft millions of laws as the specific law would not be fit for purpose as it would not cover even slightly different circumstances - and that this would make for a cumbersome, unworkable legal system. Therefore a balance has to be achieved between detail and room for interpretation by a judge to allow the law to be used by a judge to apply to a wider set of circumstances and remove the need for constant revisions, amendments or re-drafting.

Yes, but they can’t make them too vague either. That’s the point – sufficiently clear to be functionally useful without being overly prescriptive. If Parliament thought vague versifying was a better way to achieve that than legal drafting, that’s what they’d have done.     

Quote
The Quran is used as a basis for people to add detail to develop a legal system, not as a legal system in itself. Sharia law has developed based on the principles in the Quran, the reported alleged actions and sayings of Prophet Mohammed, the reported alleged actions of his companions who became Caliph after he died, the opinions of scholars who lived about 200 years after Prophet Mohamed died, and who happened to have the patronage of the Caliph of the empires they lived in, which meant their particular schools of thought survived and became popular, and the opinions of other people over the centuries who gained power or influence after these scholars died.

Sharia law has developed in many different directions in many different countries in line with the wishes and culture and infrastructure of those in power at the time in those countries. - there is not one agreed upon sharia law.

You can’t have it both ways though. Either the principles that constitute “the basis” are clear and unambiguous, or their only functional use depends on whichever interpretation happens to be most accepted by the people trying to use them.         

Quote
You may or may not have noticed that every single time I have read you describe my faith as a guess I have not contradicted you, at least I don't think I have, because I can see why it could be considered a guess.

However, the way I use the word "guess" is to say "I guess so" to indicate I don't have much interest in the subject matter. So for me this is more than a guess on the basis that I have more interest and commitment and resolve with the concept of a god in an Islamic narrative. So I would not want to use the word "guess" as it doesn't describe the whole picture.

If, on the other hand,  your use of "guess" means that if you don't know it as a fact, and you have no demonstrable evidence to justify what you think then you are guessing, then I agree, by your definition i am guessing.

Well yes, though it seems odd to me to have “commitment and resolve” etc to any one guess over any other.   

Quote
When you say is there any method for faith to bridge the gap - are you asking if faith can make it true for you? Because quite clearly I don't think it can.

No, it’s more that I’m asking why anyone should privilege a faith belief over any other guess. Why in other words when someone attempts, “but that’s my faith” as an argument shouldn’t the only rational answer be, “so what?”.   

Quote
Or are you talking about a person's emotion that inspires them to believe without having evidence that they can demonstrate to others, because their feeling/ personal experience gives them a particular emotion/ understanding/ perspective that they were seeking so validates their decision to persist with their belief in something they cannot fully explain or present a coherent concept of to someone else?

What people find personally emotionally satisfying is a matter for them, but I see no reason to treat in the public square any one such faith claim differently from any other. That’s all I’m saying here.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65796
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #901 on: October 20, 2017, 01:21:07 PM »
Creating a universe one is independent of and outside of IS divine.
What is a universe in this description?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19724
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #902 on: October 20, 2017, 01:23:52 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
They ceased to be non divine if they have fulfilled the criteria ''Intelligent designer of a universe, independent and outside of that universe.''

No they didn’t. Try looking up “divine” to see where you’ve gone wrong.

Quote
Sorry Hillside.

You should be.

Quote
Creating a universe one is independent of and outside of IS divine.

Only if you don’t understand what the word “divine” means. Do you think that very smart and naturalistic aliens who themselves were part of a larger universe (of which they may not even have been aware) still were necessarily divine?

You’re just making the same mistake here that you made a while back when you asserted that, if science couldn’t explain something, it must be “supernatural” thereby eliminating at a stroke the possibility that it could be natural only science didn’t have the answer. 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 01:27:27 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19724
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #903 on: October 20, 2017, 01:33:40 PM »
NS,

Quote
What is a universe in this description?

NdGT referred only to the apparent universe, ie the one of which we're aware ("Whatever that being is, it very well might be able to create a simulation of a universe."). Vlad has expanded that to imply the universe as a whole with which the claims of theology are concerned though he keeps switching between "a" universe and "the" universe as if they were interchangeable. Why he thinks a conjecture that requires only a localised, possibly long gone, possibly naturalistic alien engineer with some smart technology and the intent to use it is "identical" to theology is anyone's guess, but that's his claim nonetheless.   
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 01:38:19 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #904 on: October 20, 2017, 01:36:36 PM »
And you would be divine.
We know that because Bluehillside wearing his atheist hat has been arguing against such an entity for as many years as I've known him.

He is now his own chief opponent it seems.

Why divine, and not just very clever?

That creator could die having created it.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #905 on: October 20, 2017, 01:37:15 PM »
What is a universe in this description?

Well, presumably humans might be able one day to simulate a self-sustaining world via software.   I guess we are then divine, according to Vlad.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65796
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #906 on: October 20, 2017, 01:39:00 PM »
NS,

NdGT referred only to the apparent universe, ie the one of which we're aware. Vlad has expanded that to imply the universe as a whole with which the claims of theology are concerned though he keeps switching between "a" universe and "the" universe as if they were interchangeable. Why he thinks a conjecture that requires only a localised, possibly long gone, possibly naturalistic alien engineer with some smart technology and the intent to use it is "identical" to theology is anyone's guess, but that's his claim nonetheless.
Yes, I see all that but worse for me is that this appears to make computer games developers divine, and trust me they aren't

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65796
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #907 on: October 20, 2017, 01:40:20 PM »
Well, presumably humans might be able one day to simulate a self-sustaining world via software.   I guess we are then divine, according to Vlad.
I think we by that definition already have. Or rather some us have. Gods walk amongst us.

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #908 on: October 20, 2017, 01:43:46 PM »
It's certainly an interesting take on God or divinity.  Simulating a world is divine?   Who needs stuff like the supernatural, sin, salvation,  a redeemer, Jesus, in fact.  Vlad has shaken it all up!
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65796
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #909 on: October 20, 2017, 01:57:28 PM »
And in addition the various pantheons are now not gods, including the OT god, and indeed the NT god for a lot of people who don't see it as external.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33774
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #910 on: October 20, 2017, 02:08:32 PM »
Why divine, and not just very clever?

False dichotomy?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33774
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #911 on: October 20, 2017, 02:09:55 PM »
Yes, I see all that but worse for me is that this appears to make computer games developers divine, and trust me they aren't
Not to us they aren't.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19724
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #912 on: October 20, 2017, 02:17:59 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
False dichotomy?

No, just a falsification of your claim.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33774
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #913 on: October 20, 2017, 02:19:58 PM »
It's certainly an interesting take on God or divinity.  Simulating a world is divine?   Who needs stuff like the supernatural, sin, salvation,  a redeemer, Jesus, in fact.  Vlad has shaken it all up!
SU does not mean necessarily that there isn't sin, salvation, redemption Jesus and in SU the creator is not subject to the natural order of that universe which is probably as supernatural as you can get.

If you examine Bostrom's conjecture there is nothing to stop the creator/designer putting ''windows'' from himself to communicate with his universe and that specifically covers another part of theism which Hillside contends is missing from SU. It isn't and even if it were the basic qualification for simulator is theological.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33774
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #914 on: October 20, 2017, 02:22:29 PM »
Vlad,

No, just a falsification of your claim.
Don't be silly. You are claiming that you can't be divine and very clever. Still if you've laid down the biggest turd of refusing to recognise that two identical things are identical then there are then no holds barred.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19724
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #915 on: October 20, 2017, 02:27:44 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
SU does not mean necessarily that there isn't sin, salvation, redemption Jesus and in SU the creator is not subject to the natural order of that universe which is probably as supernatural as you can get.

It doesn't mean necessarily that there isn't anything. What it does mean though is that the SU conjecture does not share many of the characteristics necessary for the theology with which you claim to be be "identical".

Quote
If you examine Bostrom's conjecture there is nothing to stop the creator/designer putting ''windows'' from himself to communicate with his universe and that specifically covers another part of theism which Hillside contends is missing from SU. It isn't and even if it were the basic qualification for simulator is theological.

No it doesn't. "Nothing to stop" is not the same thing as "is".
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 02:42:58 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19724
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #916 on: October 20, 2017, 02:33:25 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Don't be silly. You are claiming that you can't be divine and very clever.

Why do you lie so much? Of course I haven’t claimed that “you can't be divine and very clever” at all. What I have said though is that you can’t just assume that, even if the SU conjecture is true, whatever the creator of this universe is or was is necessarily therefore divine.

That’s your mistake here.

Quote
Still if you've laid down the biggest turd of refusing to recognise that two identical things are identical then there are then no holds barred.

But they’re not even close to “identical”, for reasons that have been explained to you several times now but that you just ignore.

What would Jesus make of your dishonesty do you think?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9076
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #917 on: October 20, 2017, 03:36:55 PM »
BHS
Gabriella,

Yes, but they can’t make them too vague either. That’s the point – sufficiently clear to be functionally useful without being overly prescriptive. If Parliament thought vague versifying was a better way to achieve that than legal drafting, that’s what they’d have done.
As I said, the Quran does not appear to be a legal document - it is a message from the 7th century with some stories and some moral principles. I don't see a problem with a message from the 7th century being in verse form.

Quote
You can’t have it both ways though. Either the principles that constitute “the basis” are clear and unambiguous, or their only functional use depends on whichever interpretation happens to be most accepted by the people trying to use them.
I am not trying to have it both ways - as I have clearly stated many times now, the principles have to be interpreted by the people using them. The majority of the stories that I have read about Prophet Mohamed, regardless of whether they are true or not, suggest Prophet Mohamed was compassionate and merciful and those stories inform my interpretation of the Quran, therefore I would be very wary about interpreting it in a way where I end up hurting people, as my interpretation is that mercy and forgiveness is good and hurting people other than in a war situation is very, very bad.         

Quote
Well yes, though it seems odd to me to have “commitment and resolve” etc to any one guess over any other.
Okay. On the other hand it works for me. 

Quote
No, it’s more that I’m asking why anyone should privilege a faith belief over any other guess. Why in other words when someone attempts, “but that’s my faith” as an argument shouldn’t the only rational answer be, “so what?”.
I have not contradicted you when you have come out with this before. I don't have a problem with the answer being "so what?"

Presumably people respect faith beliefs because they think there is something to be gained from respecting something important to that person. Maybe they are trying to build a connection or mutual understanding in order to achieve a goal that they perceive as beneficial to them.

Quote
What people find personally emotionally satisfying is a matter for them, but I see no reason to treat in the public square any one such faith claim differently from any other. That’s all I’m saying here.   
As I have said before in other threads, if decisions are made to treat one faith differently from another in the public square, there is probably a quid pro quo reason for doing so. There's a political reason and my impression is that that's the reality of the way the world works. Lobby groups use this to their advantage.
Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19724
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #918 on: October 20, 2017, 04:17:54 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
I said, the Quran does not appear to be a legal document - it is a message from the 7th century with some stories and some moral principles. I don't see a problem with a message from the 7th century being in verse form.

Nor do I provided you treat it as you would any other verse that happened to be attempting some moral proposals. As I understand it though most Muslims think it’s a lot more than that (which is why for example some of their children have to recite it in Madrasars in what passes for education), but if you don’t then so be it.   

Quote
I am not trying to have it both ways - as I have clearly stated many times now, the principles have to be interpreted by the people using them. The majority of the stories that I have read about Prophet Mohamed, regardless of whether they are true or not, suggest Prophet Mohamed was compassionate and merciful and those stories inform my interpretation of the Quran, therefore I would be very wary about interpreting it in a way where I end up hurting people, as my interpretation is that mercy and forgiveness is good and hurting people other than in a war situation is very, very bad.

Yes you are – the “basic principles” of legal instruments require relatively little interpretation yet those of the Quran are it seems are all interpretation, which is why your analogy failed. Not because of a binary difference between them, but because of the difference in purpose and in clarity.             

Quote
Okay. On the other hand it works for me.

Fair enough.

Quote
I have not contradicted you when you have come out with this before. I don't have a problem with the answer being "so what?"

Presumably people respect faith beliefs because they think there is something to be gained from respecting something important to that person. Maybe they are trying to build a connection or mutual understanding in order to achieve a goal that they perceive as beneficial to them.

Maybe they are, but that doesn’t imply that they should be treated as anything other than guessing when those who think them personally important overreach into the asserting them to be therefore true.   

Quote
As I have said before in other threads, if decisions are made to treat one faith differently from another in the public square, there is probably a quid pro quo reason for doing so. There's a political reason and my impression is that that's the reality of the way the world works. Lobby groups use this to their advantage.

Perhaps, but essentially what I’m hearing you say I think is that you treat your faith as a type of aesthetics. Just as you might find a painting or a piece of music to be meaningful to you, that’s all you think it to be.

That makes you rare I think among those who typically call themselves “Muslim”, and I’m surprised that you’re content to share the label given what most others seem to mean by it instead but there you go.     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9076
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #919 on: October 20, 2017, 04:44:55 PM »
Gabriella,

Nor do I provided you treat it as you would any other verse that happened to be attempting some moral proposals. As I understand it though most Muslims think it’s a lot more than that (which is why for example some of their children have to recite it in Madrasars in what passes for education), but if you don’t then so be it.
The Quran is believed to be the word of God. Muslims believe there is a blessing in reciting it in Arabic, even if they don't understand what they are reciting because they don't understand Arabic.

Lots of Muslims can recite the Quran in Arabic but they are not comprehending it as they recite as they don't know Arabic vocab, grammar etc. They might know what some of the words and verses mean because they have learned the meaning when they are studying the meaning of verses using translations of the Quran in their native language.

I can recite the Quran in Arabic but only know limited vocab. But reciting together is a useful bonding exercise - better than watching TV as you have to use your brain to decipher the letters and blend them together. Sometimes each person takes a turn to recite a section and everyone else reads along and corrects them if they make a mistake; sometimes we recite at the same time so you get to practise without having to be in the spotlight. You tend to feel good after you have completed it.

If some Muslims think the Quran is all they need as their education they have obviously decided not to follow the reported Hadith on seeking knowledge and education.

Quote
Yes you are – the “basic principles” of legal instruments require relatively little interpretation yet those of the Quran are it seems are all interpretation, which is why your analogy failed. Not because of a binary difference between them, but because of the difference in purpose and in clarity.
No I am not. My point was that even something that was meant to be a legal instrument requires interpretation, so of course something that is not a legal document such as the Quran, in verse form, will require interpretation.             

Quote
Maybe they are, but that doesn’t imply that they should be treated as anything other than guessing when those who think them personally important overreach into the asserting them to be therefore true.
How they should be treated depends on what the person making that decision thinks they gain by treating the claim as something more. For example, if someone feels they are a man even though biologically they are a woman, I could say it's all in your head, or I could humour them and agree they are a man trapped in a woman's body. If I choose to do the latter, it is because I perceive a benefit to someone from respecting their perspective.   

Quote
Perhaps, but essentially what I’m hearing you say I think is that you treat your faith as a type of aesthetics. Just as you might find a painting or a piece of music to be meaningful to you, that’s all you think it to be.

That makes you rare I think among those who typically call themselves “Muslim”, and I’m surprised that you’re content to share the label given what most others seem to mean by it instead but there you go.     
I can't make it meaningful to someone else, so I have no choice but for it only to be meaningful to me. Freedom of religion - to believe or not believe - is in the Quran. If other Muslims think differently, it's probably a reflection of the increasing importance of identity politics, no platforming stuff that is going on in the UK - something I have very little interest in. I have no need for someone else to validate my identity or beliefs and I don't have a problem with people holding different beliefs and perspectives from me.
Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33774
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #920 on: October 20, 2017, 05:01:17 PM »


But they’re not even close to “identical”, for reasons that have been explained to you several times now but that you just ignore.


So that's where we are now? Two identical statements are not just not identical but are not even close to being identical!

I'm afraid even I'm not getting in there with you Hillside.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9076
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #921 on: October 20, 2017, 05:36:08 PM »
BHS
Gabriella,

Because it’s a crap point. Who in science says, “the end justifies the means” exactly? 

I meant to respond to this but forgot. I was referring to bioethics. e.g. debates about whether using foetal tissue from an elective abortion to cure otherwise incurable disorders  could lead to a reduced sense of value of human life and exploitation of women. Some doctors feel the benefits justify this potential cost. others don't.

Or see "Worst case bioethics" book that explores post-9/11 ethical issues that concern science and medicine. 
Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19724
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #922 on: October 20, 2017, 05:48:28 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
So that's where we are now? Two identical statements are not just not identical but are not even close to being identical!

I'm afraid even I'm not getting in there with you Hillside.

Of course two identical statements are identical. The problem though is that one of them fundamentally misdescribes the thing it claims to be describing.

Perhaps if you stopped lying for once you might actually learn something?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33774
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #923 on: October 20, 2017, 06:45:48 PM »
Vlad,

Of course two identical statements are identical. The problem though is that one of them fundamentally misdescribes the thing it claims to be describing.

So an intelligent creator of a universe of which it is independent of ......fundamentally misdescribes God eh? You better tell Hillside then he's been arguing against that kind of God for years.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19724
Re: Faith vs blind faith
« Reply #924 on: October 20, 2017, 06:59:15 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
So an intelligent creator of a universe of which it is independent of ......fundamentally misdescribes God eh?

Yes, or at least your god. See Reply 878 for a list of the differences.

Quote
You better tell Hillside then he's been arguing against that kind of God for years.

No Hillside hasn't. Stop lying.
"Don't make me come down there."

God