Ted Heath - victim or rapist

[ProfessorDavey]

With the antics of the Christian clergy as background - she wants justice for the accused so that it will flow on to any accused members of the clergy!

I really hope that isn't the case.

But if it were then it is misplaced. The clergy abuse issues are critically ones of organisational failure to deal with abuse, and further seemingly to collude to prevent reputational damage. This goes way beyond individual wrong-doing and of course cannot be closed down when individuals accused of abuse have died as the organisation remains, and therefore remains to be robustly investigated for institutional failures and wrong-doing with damages potential due to victims from the organisation well after the accused individual is dead and cannot face individual charges.

[Owlswing]

I really hope that isn't the case.

But if it were then it is misplaced. The clergy abuse issues are critically ones of organisational failure to deal with abuse, and further seemingly to collude to prevent reputational damage. This goes way beyond individual wrong-doing and of course cannot be closed down when individuals accused of abuse have died as the organisation remains, and therefore remains to be robustly investigated for institutional failures and wrong-doing with damages potential due to victims from the organisation well after the accused individual is dead and cannot face individual charges.

An what odds are you offering that the Catholic Church is going to change its ruling that it answers only to its God in these matters!?

[jeremyp]

An what odds are you offering that the Catholic Church is going to change its ruling that it answers only to its God in these matters!?

Hopefully, those people in the Catholic Church who helped paedophile priests evade justice will be answering only to their god from inside a prison cell. I'm not holding my breath though.

[Owlswing]

Hopefully, those people in the Catholic Church who helped paedophile priests evade justice will be answering only to their god from inside a prison cell. I'm not holding my breath though.

Me too neither!

[floo]

Nor me!

[wigginhall]

Reading about Cyril Smith, makes you realize why the police are determined not to let anyone off the hook now, even if they're dead.   Smith was arrested several times, and then released, despite strong evidence incriminating him;  information about his abuse of children was gathered by a detective, and then mysteriously disappeared; police enquiries about him go back to 1970, and then of course, he was knighted in 1988.   There is a strong stink about this case, and it seems likely that any investigation about him was suspended from higher up, although by whom exactly, is not known.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41547471 

[floo]

Reading about Cyril Smith, makes you realize why the police are determined not to let anyone off the hook now, even if they're dead.   Smith was arrested several times, and then released, despite strong evidence incriminating him;  information about his abuse of children was gathered by a detective, and then mysteriously disappeared; police enquiries about him go back to 1970, and then of course, he was knighted in 1988.   There is a strong stink about this case, and it seems likely that any investigation about him was suspended from higher up, although by whom exactly, is not known.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41547471

It is sickening how many men in the public eye died without having the sexual abuse allegations thoroughly investigated.

[Robbie]

Yes it is. I saw Cyril Smith on the news this evening - at least an old newsreel of him.  He got away with it for years, like many others, in a culture of cover ups, though why anyone thought Smith was worth covering up I do not know.

There was a programme on BBC 1 tonight about sexual abuse perpetrated by school kids - teenagers I presume.  I might watch it on iplayer if I can't sleep.  Sexual abuse by people you know is far more common than the cases that make the headlines.

[Owlswing]

Yes it is. I saw Cyril Smith on the news this evening - at least an old newsreel of him.  He got away with it for years, like many others, in a culture of cover ups, though why anyone thought Smith was worth covering up I do not know.

It was not a cover-up for the benefit of Cyril Smith, unfortunately.

It was geared to protect anyone in parliament, the Civil Service, the military, the clergy and the entire aristocracy from top to bottom.

One of the instruments of that covering up was Freemasonary, the Brotherhood.

I know of one child, under sixteen at the time, who was raped several times, and his attacker warned him to keep his trap shut because his attacker was a freemason and, he told his victim, so were most police officers, most doctors, most lawyers and most judges, who had sworn a "sacred and binding oath" to protect all their Bretheren against all comers low and high who were not of the Brotherhood.

[Harrowby Hall]

I recall hearing of an incident (most likely, though, to be apocryphal) of an accused man (possibly for murder) giving the judge a secret masonic gesture and receiving a reply stating that that would not help him here.

I am wary of stories of the believed protection of Freemasonry in such circumstances. If only because a non-masonic policeman, prosecutor, judge - whatever - could readily construct a charge of conspiring to pervert the course of justice. I wonder if the assailant in Owlswing's case wasn't merely using it as a frightener, and was not actually a member of the masons?

[Sassy]

ALL cases of sexual abuse should be investigated, whether they took place many years ago or today. I wish my husband's uncle by marriage, who abused him when he was a small boy, had been made to face a court of law. My father-in-law had words with him, and my husband wasn't abused by him again. However, that evil piece of the proverbial worked as a clown for kids parties, which gave him plenty of opportunity to touch kids up.

Does your husband know you are talking about his personal issues on a public forum?

I am sorry to hear your husband was the victim of any type of abuse.

Your Father-in-law allowed him to carry on as a clown and did nothing to keep other children safe?

Neglectful in his parenting role and in his duty to the safety of other Children. Would never let him near my children or my home and family again.

[Sassy]

So you have no interest in justice for the victim then.

How do you propose you get justice if the person dead?
How do you propose to tell who is telling the truth?

So the truth is you have no real justified reason for writing such a thing but the same prejudicial glasses you look through when the reply comes from a believer.

Common sense tells you that justice cannot be obtained if the perpetrator is dead.

How do you propose to prove or un-prove the allegations?  At this stage it is just allegations. What about justice for the
person whose name could be being marred if innocent.

Historic child abuse against a dead person can bring no justice for either party. The said Perpertrator or the said victim.
You going to dig Ted Heath up and put him on trial?

One thing I am assured about, is that one day everyone will know when Christ returned and the people are judged what they did and did not do.

Abhorrent acts such as child abuse can never be seen as anything but an act  of pure evil.  Justice and truth is something everyone  is entitled to. But sometimes the truth is that no justice is served or truth when it cannot be taken to court and a jury given chance to produce a verdict over the evidence.

So I have interest in Justice for everyone including the dead and the living.

But you and I, we both know their is no justice where the perpetrator is dead.

[Sassy]

Hopefully, those people in the Catholic Church who helped paedophile priests evade justice will be answering only to their god from inside a prison cell. I'm not holding my breath though.

Why is everyone calling the Roman Catholic Church the Catholic Church.
The Church of England and Rome are CHRISTIAN churches. Catholic is a word which means 'universal' everywhere.
Hence both Churches are Catholic and both Christian.

I am not a member of the Roman Catholic Church and have no interest in it's clergy who stand accused of abuse getting off with anything.

It is sick that people even in 'goading' could suggest such horrible things about innocent people because they are not capable of producing a good argument against the other persons posts. I have always been clear that I hold no truck with persons who abuse Children. I believe Justice is for all and innocent people should not go to prison if they did not wrong.

Dead people cannot defend themselves. BUT it appears justice is sometimes mocked for making the right stands.

[Sassy]

Yes it is. I saw Cyril Smith on the news this evening - at least an old newsreel of him.  He got away with it for years, like many others, in a culture of cover ups, though why anyone thought Smith was worth covering up I do not know.

There was a programme on BBC 1 tonight about sexual abuse perpetrated by school kids - teenagers I presume.  I might watch it on iplayer if I can't sleep.  Sexual abuse by people you know is far more common than the cases that make the headlines.

So the program proved he did it?

There was forensic evidence to prove he did what he was accused of doing?

At first I was drawn in with the allegations.  Personally, I believe the amount of people accused, there was no way it would have been contained, people had to be turning blind eyes. But who given the way we are today would have turned a blind eye to child abuse.  Floo was saying her Father-in-law appeared to do just that. Not warning other parents or going to the police.

Shame can be misplaced and keep people quiet, but what caused this sudden historic and large rise in sexual allegations against Children from prominent figures in society?

[Sassy]

It was not a cover-up for the benefit of Cyril Smith, unfortunately.

It was geared to protect anyone in parliament, the Civil Service, the military, the clergy and the entire aristocracy from top to bottom.

One of the instruments of that covering up was Freemasonary, the Brotherhood.

I know of one child, under sixteen at the time, who was raped several times, and his attacker warned him to keep his trap shut because his attacker was a freemason and, he told his victim, so were most police officers, most doctors, most lawyers and most judges, who had sworn a "sacred and binding oath" to protect all their Bretheren against all comers low and high who were not of the Brotherhood.

The Masons do not use their power or brotherhood to pervert the course of justice. If you commit a crime you do the time.

[Owlswing]

I recall hearing of an incident (most likely, though, to be apocryphal) of an accused man (possibly for murder) giving the judge a secret masonic gesture and receiving a reply stating that that would not help him here.

I am wary of stories of the believed protection of Freemasonry in such circumstances. If only because a non-masonic policeman, prosecutor, judge - whatever - could readily construct a charge of conspiring to pervert the course of justice. I wonder if the assailant in Owlswing's case wasn't merely using it as a frightener, and was not actually a member of the masons?

Oh he was a member all right, as were his father-in-law and three of his sons.

[Owlswing]

How do you propose you get justice if the person dead?
How do you propose to tell who is telling the truth?

So the truth is you have no real justified reason for writing such a thing but the same prejudicial glasses you look through when the reply comes from a believer.

Common sense tells you that justice cannot be obtained if the perpetrator is dead.

How do you propose to prove or un-prove the allegations?  At this stage it is just allegations. What about justice for the
person whose name could be being marred if innocent.

Historic child abuse against a dead person can bring no justice for either party. The said Perpertrator or the said victim.
You going to dig Ted Heath up and put him on trial?

One thing I am assured about, is that one day everyone will know when Christ returned and the people are judged what they did and did not do.

Abhorrent acts such as child abuse can never be seen as anything but an act  of pure evil.  Justice and truth is something everyone  is entitled to. But sometimes the truth is that no justice is served or truth when it cannot be taken to court and a jury given chance to produce a verdict over the evidence.

So I have interest in Justice for everyone including the dead and the living.

But you and I, we both know their is no justice where the perpetrator is dead.

Maybe the word "closure" should be substituted foir the word "justice" in these cases?

[Owlswing]

The Masons do not use their power or brotherhood to pervert the course of justice. If you commit a crime you do the time.

Rubbish!

You are female and know even less than I do, a male, about the inner workings of Freemasonry a chauvenistic male-on!y SECRET organisation!

If you do know anything about their innerworkings someone has broken a sacred oath taken at initiation.

Please pull your "I-know-everything" head in on this one!

[floo]

So the program proved he did it?

There was forensic evidence to prove he did what he was accused of doing?

At first I was drawn in with the allegations.  Personally, I believe the amount of people accused, there was no way it would have been contained, people had to be turning blind eyes. But who given the way we are today would have turned a blind eye to child abuse.  Floo was saying her Father-in-law appeared to do just that. Not warning other parents or going to the police.

Shame can be misplaced and keep people quiet, but what caused this sudden historic and large rise in sexual allegations against Children from prominent figures in society?

You seem to be defending alleged child abusers!

[Shaker]

You seem to be defending alleged child abusers!

I'd have thought that defending alleged child abusers is exactly what the law allows and demands.

[wigginhall]

So the program proved he did it?

There was forensic evidence to prove he did what he was accused of doing?

At first I was drawn in with the allegations.  Personally, I believe the amount of people accused, there was no way it would have been contained, people had to be turning blind eyes. But who given the way we are today would have turned a blind eye to child abuse.  Floo was saying her Father-in-law appeared to do just that. Not warning other parents or going to the police.

Shame can be misplaced and keep people quiet, but what caused this sudden historic and large rise in sexual allegations against Children from prominent figures in society?

It's partly the realization of how many abuse victims were historically abused and told to shut up.   I think some of Savile's victims had this done, and many victims of priests and teachers.   So the various authorities are trying to reverse this trend, by taking accusations seriously.  I think it's OK, as long as it's done equally, I mean, Fred the plumber will be investigated just as much as Lord Unzipmyfly.   

[floo]

It's partly the realization of how many abuse victims were historically abused and told to shut up.   I think some of Savile's victims had this done, and many victims of priests and teachers.   So the various authorities are trying to reverse this trend, by taking accusations seriously.  I think it's OK, as long as it's done equally, I mean, Fred the plumber will be investigated just as much as Lord Unzipmyfly.

All sex abuse allegations should receive equal serious attention from the authorities

[Owlswing]

All sex abuse allegations should receive equal serious attention from the authorities

The most important word in your post is "SHOULD" - however its importance is not necessarily going to make it happen.

[Nearly Sane]

The most important word in your post is "SHOULD" - however its importance is not necessarily going to make it happen.

So the allegation that Richard the Third sexually abused the Princes in the Tower should receive equally serious attention as that your child is being abused by a teacher?

[Robbie]

Sassy I haven't seen a programme devoted to Cyril Smith abuse, only news reports, some of them a while back but the story is back in the news now.  The programme I mentioned was a documentary on BBC1 about kids being abused by other kids.   I did watch it and wished I hadn't, it was upsetting.

(Catholic with a small 'c' (catholic)means universal; with a Capital C it means the Catholic Church.)