Sexual Abuse and Prominent People

[Rhiannon]

You used my post alongside your assertion that there is ‘mob rule’ around this incident.

[Rhiannon]

Ffs. Again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41827264

[Nearly Sane]

I'm struggling to understand what actual sanctions have been taken against Spacey, and who on this thread has supported any such things. Yes, an awards ceremony for him has been cancelled and it would appear that House of Cards may well cease but those aren't really sanctions to my mind. Further it should be remembered that Spacey hasn't denied in any way the charge, has apologised for any action and stated that he can't remember it. Even without a court case, and I suspect there won't be one, anyone taking action such as cancelling the awards ceremony has surely a right to consider there to be an issue because of that?


Similar applies to Weinstein, in that while any rape claims, which he has clearly denied, would need to have further action legally to be regarded as relevant to any actions, he has admitted to clear sexual harassment and abuse. It's not a witch hunt or mob rule to take his own comments as damning him here.

[Harrowby Hall]

OK, perhaps my use of "mob rule" may have been hyperbolic. I was trying to voice my impression that posters had made up their minds on the basis of an accusation of an event which took place more than 20 years ago and for which there is no evidence. The general tone of the thread had become somewhat condemnatory - "no smoke without fire".

As it happens, I don't think that Kevin Spacey has done himself many favours by the way he has chosen to handle this matter. He has managed to conflate homosexuality with "paedophilia" (rightly creating consternation in LGBT circles). And this has stoked up the general ignorance of the distinction between paedophilia and hebephilia.

What now for Spacey - withdrawal of his knighthood?

[floo]

Do either or both of you celebrate you respective birthdays quite soon after your wedding anniversary? 

Why do you want to know that?

[Sebastian Toe]

Why do you want to know that?

Think about it a little longer?

[Rhiannon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41828874

<sigh>

[floo]

Our eldest daughter was born 10 months after we wed, if that is what you are on about.

[Sebastian Toe]

Our eldest daughter was born 10 months after we wed, if that is what you are on about.

You got there in the end!

[floo]

You got there in the end!

And what business is it of yours anyway?

[Sebastian Toe]

And what business is it of yours anyway?

Oh, FFS, forget it.

[floo]

Oh, FFS, forget it.

I suppose you were hoping my marriage was a shotgun one, as my husband and I were young when we wed. I can assure you it wasn't, we had been an item since I was 15, and engaged when I was 18.

[Robbie]

Quite right floo & it never occurred to me that was what he was getting out, how personal, rude and stupid.

[Robbie]

It gets worse,you couldn't make it up. He's toast especially after this:-
"Other men have now come forward, accusing Spacey of sexual harassment.
US filmmaker Tony Montana told Radar Online he suffered from PTSD for six months after Spacey allegedly grabbed his crotch in a Los Angeles bar in 2003.
And Mexican actor Roberto Cavazos, who acted in several plays at the Old Vic, claimed in a Facebook post Spacey "routinely preyed" on young male actors."

[Sebastian Toe]

Quite right floo & it never occurred to me that was what he was getting out, how personal, rude and stupid.

FFS not you too. I was doing nothing of the kind.
Get over yourselves.

[floo]

FFS not you too. I was doing nothing of the kind.
Get over yourselves.

Well what were you getting at then, explain yourself?

[Sebastian Toe]

Well what were you getting at then, explain yourself?

It's really not worth the effort therefore I can't be arsed.
But please accept my apologies for any perceived offence that you have taken.

[floo]

It's really not worth the effort therefore I can't be arsed.
But please accept my apologies for any perceived offence that you have taken.

OK thanks.

[jeremyp]

what happened to Claire Foy with what happened to Rhiannon.

I did not at any point claim they were equivalent. In fact, the point was to precisely the opposite: to show that not all sexual assaults are not equivalent.

[Nearly Sane]

I did not at any point claim they were equivalent. In fact, the point was to precisely the opposite: to show that not all sexual assaults are not equivalent.

So you put two things together that no one had claimed were the same to show they weren't the same?

[jeremyp]

So you put two things together that no one had claimed were the same to show they weren't the same?

Let me try to make it a bit clearer for you.

Rhiannon claimed that an apology was not enough to mitigate a sexual assault.

I said that, surely that was up to the victim to decide.

Rhiannon pointed out that the consequences of a sexual assault go beyond the victim and the perpetrator.

I conceded that that was certainly true in the more serious cases. For example, a rapist needs to be taken out of society, if nothing else, to stop him from doing it again.

However, I foresaw some problems. For example, can you force the victim to testify against the rapist? Also, is there a level of seriousness below which the interests of society are not served by pursuing the matter. I gave the Claire Foy incident as an example that I think is in the latter category.

[Nearly Sane]

Let me try to make it a bit clearer for you.

Rhiannon claimed that an apology was not enough to mitigate a sexual assault.

I said that, surely that was up to the victim to decide.

Rhiannon pointed out that the consequences of a sexual assault go beyond the victim and the perpetrator.

I conceded that that was certainly true in the more serious cases. For example, a rapist needs to be taken out of society, if nothing else, to stop him from doing it again.

However, I foresaw some problems. For example, can you force the victim to testify against the rapist? Also, is there a level of seriousness below which the interests of society are not served by pursuing the matter. I gave the Claire Foy incident as an example that I think is in the latter category.

Thanks for the admirably clear post. And perhaps I am being overly sensitive but the idea that 'clumsy flirting' is the same as what Weinstein has admitted to or Rhiannon described is a dangerous trivialising of what happens. And while I accept that isn't what you were aiming to do, it reads to me as if that is what it achieves.

[jeremyp]

Thanks for the admirably clear post.

In retrospect, it would have been better if my earlier post had been just as clear.

And perhaps I am being overly sensitive but the idea that 'clumsy flirting' is the same as what Weinstein has admitted to or Rhiannon described is a dangerous trivialising of what happens. And while I accept that isn't what you were aiming to do, it reads to me as if that is what it achieves.

Hopefully, your impression has been corrected now.

[Nearly Sane]

In retrospect, it would have been better if my earlier post had been just as clear.
Hopefully, your impression has been corrected now.

It has, and again thank you

[Rhiannon]

First to say that this post isn't directed at anyone here; I'm just taking some of the ideas that have come up and am expanding on where they have led my thinking to.

Knee touching isn't sexual assault ( I say this as one who has had knees touched). It just isn't.

There is no circumstance in which I would want a victim of any sex crime or abuse to be forced to give testimony; it is revisting past trauma which can cause latent PTSD symptoms and anxiety, but also our courts and media still shame victims and still blame them. In all honesty I would never feel comfortable in telling anyone to report a sex crime or abuse unless they were sure that they wanted to.

These crimes do infect society; both women and men moderate behaviour accordingly and they divide us off from each other. Victim blaming has a lot to do with feeling unsafe - when we realise that someone we know gets knocked around by her husband or those that we admire are both victims and perpetrators, we realise that anyone can be a victim and people we like can be perpetrators. And somehow we feel things that we don't want to - betrayal, uncertainty of our own judgements, even a sense of loss as well and insecurity - so we seek to trivialise it in order to restore our own feelings. And vicim shaming and accusing those that do speak out of lying is a very good way of doing that.