Sexual Abuse and Prominent People

[wigginhall]

Interesting comment by French feminist Caroline de Haas, 'sexual violence is not intensified flirting', ( Les violences ne sont pas de la "séduction augmentée").   

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/societe/droits-des-femmes/tribune-les-porcs-et-leurs-allie-e-s-ont-raison-de-sinquieter-caroline-de-haas-et-des-militantes-feministes-repondent-a-la-tribune-publiee-dans-le-monde_2553497.html

[Nearly Sane]

I haven't read the whole letter, but there seems to be a conflation between defending the right of people to flirt and 'hit on' each other, and then the issue of a witch-hunt of men.   Eh?  Who has been unjustly accused of harassment?

The French seems to use the word 'importuner', "Nous défendons une liberté d’importuner, indispensable à la liberté sexuelle", which does't really help as I don't know the full flavour of 'importuner'.   

If Michael Fallon actually lost his Defence Secretary post because he put his hand on a women's knee - that seems to qualify as not a real justification - I think that case isn't made properly

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting comment by French feminist Caroline de Haas, 'sexual violence is not intensified flirting', ( Les violences ne sont pas de la "séduction augmentée").   

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/societe/droits-des-femmes/tribune-les-porcs-et-leurs-allie-e-s-ont-raison-de-sinquieter-caroline-de-haas-et-des-militantes-feministes-repondent-a-la-tribune-publiee-dans-le-monde_2553497.html

She is also quoted as saying 'Les signataires de la tribune du Monde sont pour la plupart des récidivistes en matière de défense de pédocriminels ou d’apologie du viol. '

[Humph Warden Bennett]

HWB - I think over all the years that I have frequented this board, nobody, but nobody (and this includes many long gone posters who were fairly rude from time to time) has said anything quite so offensive and disgusting as that!

Apologise at once you bounder 

I apologise for my unwarranted allegation implying that you have ever enjoyed reading unsubstantiated and unproven gossip about people whom you have never met.

I am suitably admonished.

[Harrowby Hall]

The French seems to use the word 'importuner', "Nous défendons une liberté d’importuner, indispensable à la liberté sexuelle", which does't really help as I don't know the full flavour of 'importuner'.

To the best of my knowledge, "importuning" is not a concept readily understood in English. A dictionary will probably define it as "bothering" or "harrassing" but I think that there is also an implication of an outcome involving sex. I first came across the word in a Maigret novel.

The letter, therefore, seems to be saying that in a sexually liberal society you can't stigmatise anyone for, well, enquiring about the possibility. So if someone's attempt at selecting a bedmate is rebuffed, and the rejection is accepted with good grace, then that person has done nothing wrong.

[Sriram]

Some people (women) seem to be a little scornful of the #MeToo movement.

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42730942

*************
Veteran French actress Brigitte Bardot has dismissed actresses who have commented on sexual harassment via the #MeToo movement as "hypocritical".

The star was asked in an interview with French magazine Paris Match what she thought of actresses denouncing harassment in the film industry.

"In the vast majority of cases they are being hypocritical, ridiculous, uninteresting," the 83-year-old said.

"There are many actresses who flirt with producers in order to get a role."

*************

[Robbie]

Catherine Deneuve said much the same.  Flirting is one thing but being groped and worse is quite another.

[wigginhall]

Yes, I think Bardot is doing a kind of logical hop skip and jump here.   If a woman flirts with someone, how does that justify being harassed or groped?   Unless Bardot is equating the two things, or saying that the woman should expect it.   That would be stone age stuff - don't wear a short skirt, because men can't help themselves.   Otherwise, I don't get it.

Also, she mentions 'the vast majority of cases' - how does she know this?  Has she checked them all? 

[Rhiannon]

I’m not convinced that Bardot and Deuneve are saying the same thing anyway. Bardot is victim shaming in a way that the letter isn’t.

[jeremyp]

Some people (women) seem to be a little scornful of the #MeToo movement.

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42730942

*************
Veteran French actress Brigitte Bardot has dismissed actresses who have commented on sexual harassment via the #MeToo movement as "hypocritical".

The star was asked in an interview with French magazine Paris Match what she thought of actresses denouncing harassment in the film industry.

"In the vast majority of cases they are being hypocritical, ridiculous, uninteresting," the 83-year-old said.

"There are many actresses who flirt with producers in order to get a role."

*************

Does Bridget Bardot have any evidence that any of the actresses who have signed up to #metoo are amongst those who have flirted with producers to get roles? Does she have any evidence that the actresses who did flirt with producers to get a role are completely OK with the idea. Maybe they did the flirting because they thought it was a necessary evil and would actually have preferred not to.

[Harrowby Hall]

Perhaps, Jeremyp, it is not difficult for someone whose employment involves pretending to be someone else (and publicly displaying every kind of behaviour of the person they are pretending to be) would not find it difficult to pretend that they like the producers involved.

This would not invalidate your apparent caution about Sriram's post.

[Rhiannon]

Perhaps, Jeremyp, it is not difficult for someone whose employment involves pretending to be someone else (and publicly displaying every kind of behaviour of the person they are pretending to be) would not find it difficult to pretend that they like the producers involved.

This would not invalidate your apparent caution about Sriram's post.

Women have tonpretend that they like dirty old men all the time. You don’t have to be able to act for a living. Just ask anyone who waits tables, serves behind a bar, works as a flight attendant...

[jakswan]

Women have tonpretend that they like dirty old men all the time. You don’t have to be able to act for a living. Just ask anyone who waits tables, serves behind a bar, works as a flight attendant...

Are all old men dirty?

[Rhiannon]

Are all old men dirty?

Nope. To be fair though there are a good number of young men whose behaviour is dirty too.

[Robbie]

Yep. Dirty young men. Most men aren't, thank goodness, and feel utterly ashamed when they hear of such things.

Women have tonpretend that they like dirty old men all the time. You don’t have to be able to act for a living. Just ask anyone who waits tables, serves behind a bar, works as a flight attendant...

Junior secretaries, students, police officers (less so nowadays), social workers and housing officers (!), young woman doing internships at the White House......

Young men are also at risk from DOM.

[Harrowby Hall]

A couple of reported incidences of abuse of power have arisen in the music world - not pop music but classical music. Both involve highly respected conductors.

In the USA, James Levine, music director of the Metropolitan Opera - a post he has held for over 40 years - is the subject of a complaint about activity with a 15 year old boy over 30 years ago. He has been stood down from all engagements - it looks as though his career has terminated.

The Swiss conductor, Charles Dutoit, principal conductor and music director of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, has been accused of multiple sexual offences by a number of women. The RPO has cancelled his engagements, saying that time must be allowed to enable the incidents to be investigated.

These accusations are taken very seriously by the orchestra and the RPO believes that the truth of the matter should be determined by the legal process. The immediate action taken by the RPO and Charles Dutoit allows time for a clear picture to be established. Charles Dutoit needs to be given a fair opportunity to seek legal advice and contest these accusations.

No fewer than seven other orchestras have cancelled engagements.

If anecdote and rumour are to be believed, then conductors have always been able to enjoy adventurous sex lives.

Natalie Portman on the sexual climate in Hollywood (taken from The Independent)

Following a wave of sexual harassment allegations made against Hollywood bigwigs, dozens of actors have started speaking publicly about their own experiences.

During a talk at Vulture Festival, Natalie Portman spoke candidly out about the harassment she has received and the normalisation of such behaviour.

“When I heard everything coming out, I was like, wow, I’m so lucky that I haven’t had this,” she told an audience.

“And then, on reflection, I was like, okay, definitely never been assaulted, definitely not, but I’ve had discrimination or harassment on almost everything I’ve ever worked on in some way.

“I went from thinking I don’t have a story to thinking, ‘Oh wait, I have 100 stories’. And I think a lot of people are having these reckonings with themselves, of things that we just took for granted as like, this is part of the process.”

[jeremyp]

Perhaps, Jeremyp, it is not difficult for someone whose employment involves pretending to be someone else (and publicly displaying every kind of behaviour of the person they are pretending to be) would not find it difficult to pretend that they like the producers involved.

This would not invalidate your apparent caution about Sriram's post.

Do you understand the difference between pretending to like somebody and pretending to like giving them sexual favours?

[Harrowby Hall]

Do you understand the difference between pretending to like somebody and pretending to like giving them sexual favours?

I am simply saying that the people concerned are professional .... actors. Nothing more.

Consider the way that Norma Jean Mortensen transformed herself into Marilyn Monroe.

[Rhiannon]

Do you understand the difference between pretending to like somebody and pretending to like giving them sexual favours?

Your post about Bardot mentioned flirting, not sex.

[jeremyp]

Your post about Bardot mentioned flirting, not sex.

Why should women even have to flirt to get the job they want? If there's a part available, shouldn't the best actor get it not the one who is prepared to flirt with the director?

[floo]

Why should women even have to flirt to get the job they want? If there's a part available, shouldn't the best actor get it not the one who is prepared to flirt with the director?

I totally agree.

[Harrowby Hall]

Why should women even have to flirt to get the job they want? If there's a part available, shouldn't the best actor get it not the one who is prepared to flirt with the director?

I totally agree - but I don't think that it was ever the director who was the miscreant. The director is just a hired hand with little power, the person with the power was the producer. And the person with the greatest power was the studio head.

Joseph P Kennedy (father of JFK and onetime US ambassador in London) bought a stake in a film studio - reportedly to provide access to female talent. He had an affair with Gloria Swanson. His sons, John and Robert, were both active womanisers even when in high office.

Darryl F Zanuck - head of 20th Century Fox was renowned for his  ...  err ...  quality control checks on young actresses. He would summon a contract actress to spend time with him every afternoon. Some did become stars.

I wonder if this behaviour is some kind of biological relic in homo sapiens of the dominant male behaviour seen in many mammalian species?

[Rhiannon]

Why should women even have to flirt to get the job they want? If there's a part available, shouldn't the best actor get it not the one who is prepared to flirt with the director?

They shouldn’t.

I was reflecting what you said to HH. I’m not sure why you asked him what you did.

[Robbie]

Because he likes responding to a post with a question or questions and he's not the only one.

[jeremyp]

I totally agree - but I don't think that it was ever the director who was the miscreant. The director is just a hired hand with little power, the person with the power was the producer. And the person with the greatest power was the studio head.

Sorry, I used the word "director" to mean "person with hiring privileges".