Sexual Abuse and Prominent People

[jeremyp]

They shouldn’t.

I was reflecting what you said to HH. I’m not sure why you asked him what you did.

Because HH's post in response to my post criticising Bridget Bardot seemed to claim that because these women were actors, pretending to like people should come easy to them and it was therefore OK. I agree with HH on that but it is not about pretending to like people, it is about flirting with people., which is not the same thing.

Nobody should have to flirt to get a job and if you do flirt to get a job, you are perpetuating the culture that leads to Harvey Weinstein.

[Harrowby Hall]

This is really just an observation. But much of this discussion has taken place in a context that suggests that men are always predatory and that women are victims. I do not doubt that for many of these occurrences this is manifestly the case.

But it is quite possible for the sexual aggressor to be a woman who uses her sexual favours as bargaining chips in the development of her career - possibly with threats of blackmail quietly tucked away. The desire to be a film star may have been so great that a possible casual sexual involvement would have been seen to be a reasonable price to pay. It may even be conceivable that in a business where one's body is the main asset, bodies were a commodity with a value: "All I've got to do is to sleep with a couple of them and then I've got my part."

I think that we are looking at historical actions through modern spectacles, in a context where feminism is a powerful force, a context where women are valued for who they are and what they are. I have mentioned before that the conductor of the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra is a woman. She fills Symphony Hall - not because she is a woman but because she is Mirga.

I go to the gym every morning. Most mornings there are some girls from the local high school - perhaps 14 or 15 years old. They are fortunate because they are probably the first generation of young women who will be taken seriously as sports people in their own right. Women' football and cricket teams are now considered to be as worthy of respect as mens' teams - not as some parody of "the real thing".

The past is another country - they do things differently there.

But that doesn't mean that the past is a better country ...

[Rhiannon]

Oh look, the old ‘actresses are just prostitutes’ argument. Thought that was done with before the war.

Meantime those 15 year old girls had better hope that the lessons on consent stick.

[jakswan]

Oh look, the old ‘actresses are just prostitutes’ argument. Thought that was done with before the war.

Meantime those 15 year old girls had better hope that the lessons on consent stick.

I must have missed that post is it me or do some people hear what they want to hear.

[Rhiannon]

I must have missed that post is it me or do some people hear what they want to hear.

HH said,  'a business where one's body is the main asset, bodies were a commodity with a value: "All I've got to do is to sleep with a couple of them and then I've got my part."'. Nothing about the requirement for women to be able to act. Just sell their bodies.

[Harrowby Hall]

I must have missed that post is it me or do some people hear what they want to hear.

What Rhiannon has done is to take a short part of a larger post, strip it of its context and then use it as fuel for a rant.

[Rhiannon]

What Rhiannon has done is to take a short part of a larger post, strip it of its context and then use it as fuel for a rant.

Two sentences equals a rant?

Bit of an ad hominem there but whatever. And you could have replied to me but chose to reply to Jak. So telling. Talking over the little woman.

[Nearly Sane]

What Rhiannon has done is to take a short part of a larger post, strip it of its context and then use it as fuel for a rant.

That implies some form of dishonesty on her part which I think is unjustified. It seems to me that the context you had it in doesn't make that much difference and your post could well be read the way Rhiannon read it. To be honest, I didn't really see what point you were making in raising the idea of actors sleeping with people for favours.

[Harrowby Hall]

The point I was trying to make - clearly not very effectively - is that social values have changed.

My expectation, my hope, my belief is that we are now living in an era when sex (ie whether one is male or female) should not be a relevant factor in expecting excellence or competence. Combined with this is - I hope - the realisation that the exercise of sexual power is a thing of the past. In almost every sphere of activity women are as capable as men  and this should progress to the equal representation of men and women at all levels of authority.

There is plenty of evidence that during the middle decades of the 20th century ambitious actresses used sex to advance their careers (they may not necessarily have enjoyed it) and also that men may used their real (or feigned) homosexuality to the same ends. I was attempting - clearly unsuccessfully - to contrast those times with today, although as the Weinstein affair shows, such practices may not have entirely disappeared.

Rhiannon clearly failed to recognise my purpose in posting. And even where I was attempting to celebrate - in my eyes - the liberated world in which young women find themselves, Rhiannon appeared to devalue it by adding "consent".

I apologise for my failings in communication.

[Rhiannon]

HH, the ‘liberalisation’ that you celebrate is illusory. My daughters don’t give a fuck about football. They do about body shaming, slut shaming, getting sent dick pics, rape threats on social media and no meaning no.

[Harrowby Hall]

That, unhappily, is the world young people are creating for themselves.

(Further explanation) My point was not that the young people themselves should play football, but that football played by women is not being seen generally as some parody of "real" football. I have watched women's football on tv and find it more satisfying than much men's football. To me, it relies more on skill and team work and less on strength and power than the men's game.

And the national women's team is more successful than the national men's team ...

[Rhiannon]

No, HH, social media aside the world I grew up in was exactly the same. Rape threats were in the playground and in the street. Date rape was the norm. Most of my friends had experienced some kind of non consensual sex. And slut shaming is as old as the hills.

Even with regards football, we watch a lot of footie in this house, and as my daughter has just pointed out, she can’t name a single female player, nor who is top of the league. There’s no transfer window update for the women’s game, no WMOTD. The seriousness with which womens’ football is reflected by the calibre of the recent England managers. The possibility of Phil Neville getting the gig being seen as a giant leap forward speaks volumes.

And as for the pay...

[Harrowby Hall]

I accept all that, Rhiannon, I can't name any players either.

But, as I have found in conversation with other people, it is no longer considered a freak show. That women can and do play football and that people are prepared to watch it and accept it as a legitimate activity, that's the difference.

[Rhiannon]

I accept all that, Rhiannon, I can't name any players either.

But, as I have found in conversation with other people, it is no longer considered a freak show. That women can and do play football and that people are prepared to watch it and accept it as a legitimate activity, that's the difference.

It’s an improvement. It’s not equality. And in many areas no progress has been made.

[jakswan]

Two sentences equals a rant?

I agree its not a rant but I didn't read HH post and read 'acting is just prostitution'.

Bit of an ad hominem there but whatever. And you could have replied to me but chose to reply to Jak. So telling. Talking over the little woman.

Wow!

[Rhiannon]

Wow!

Yes, it surprised me too.

[jakswan]

It’s an improvement. It’s not equality. And in many areas no progress has been made.

What areas?

This in part covers the pay gap a robust debate at least.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

[jakswan]

Yes, it surprised me too.

The surprise is that without checking HH's motive you were prepared to suggest he was being misogynistic

[Nearly Sane]

The surprise is that without checking HH's motive you were prepared to suggest he was being misogynistic

My dad didn't think he was being racist when he used the term Paki. Motives aren't necessarily an easy guide.

[Rhiannon]

What areas?

This in part covers the pay gap a robust debate at least.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

Oh yeah, that’s the guy whose supporters sent Cathy Newman rape threats.

HH and I were discussing elite football. Has the gender pay gap closed in football? Give me the statistics.

[floo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42780327

I see the Pope has apologised for upsetting people with his remarks last week about sexual abuse in Chile. But is still claiming the Bishop who is accused of covering up for a paedophile priest is innocent!

[Rhiannon]

The surprise is that without checking HH's motive you were prepared to suggest he was being misogynistic

That assumes misogynistic behaviour is a conscious choice.

[jakswan]

Oh yeah, that’s the guy whose supporters sent Cathy Newman rape threats.

So that makes him wrong?

HH and I were discussing elite football. Has the gender pay gap closed in football? Give me the statistics.

No the gender pay gap still exists, try to read what I post not what you think I post.

[jakswan]

My dad didn't think he was being racist when he used the term Paki. Motives aren't necessarily an easy guide.

No idea what you mean, HH replied to my post and not to Rhiannons, now maybe HH was being misogynistic but I would not have jumped to that conclusion quite as quick.

[Nearly Sane]

So that makes him wrong?

No the gender pay gap still exists, try to read what I post not what you think I post.

Surely everyone can only read what they think you post i.e. what they think you mean? I didn't find your post particularly clear but in context of a discussion on pay if someone says there have been areas where things haven't improved and you appear to doubt that by challenging them, it's a legitimate reading to think you are saying that the specific are you reference is one where your doubt applies.