Sexual Abuse and Prominent People

[Nearly Sane]

The ructions continue



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42801178

[Sriram]

I am sure this sort of thing is going on everywhere, not just in high places and with famous people. Every office, shop, restaurant, government office, army, police and every other work place where women work, many of them could be exploited in such manner or much worse. Most of them would not be wealthy, with no clout and with no one to listen to them or print their story. 

[floo]

Quite apart from the sexual harassment claims, it is extraordinary that clubs with male members only are still functioning in the 21st century. My husband attends 'Probus' a male only club for retired business and professional men. They hold a meeting on the first Wednesday morning of each month apart from August. However, they permit female speakers like myself. I must admit I was very tempted to make some comment to that effect when giving my talk,. However, I refrained from doing so, for fear of embarrassing my husband. I know for a fact he would not have joined such a group had he not been brain damaged, but there are very few things he can attend these days, which are held during the day. He gets very tired at night, and finds it hard to function mentally after 6pm.

[Nearly Sane]

I am sure this sort of thing is going on everywhere, not just in high places and with famous people. Every office, shop, restaurant, government office, army, police and every other work place where women work, many of them could be exploited in such manner or much worse. Most of them would not be wealthy, with no clout and with no one to listen to them or print their story.

Not really sure what point you are making here. I agree that thus happens in akk walks of life but I haven't seen that denied by anyone here. That some people may have the clout to present a story is surely what is needed for those who have no voice as well?

[Robbie]

Interesting.

While I was reading the article I was thinking if it all got too much for any of the girls they could  disappear somewhere cosy in the hotel until it was over (I'm someone who always looks for an escape route in any situation). However they seem to have been quite heavily policed - not allowed mobiles and where were their own clothes? If spent too long in the loo someone would go in to find them. I feel trapped & panicky just reading that.

No, not nice. There are easier ways of making money.

[Harrowby Hall]

....  it is extraordinary that clubs with male members only are still functioning in the 21st century. My husband attends 'Probus' a male only club for retired business and professional men..... I know for a fact he would not have joined such a group had he not been brain damaged ....

Absolutely right, Floo, close these nasty men-only clubs down.  And while you're at it, close down dangerous organisations like Soroptomists and Womens Institutes  ... as well as women-only Probus Clubs. 


 

[Robbie]

I can't see anything wrong with men only or women only clubs if people want them, alongside mixed ones of which there are plenty. I had to look up Soroptomists, HH, as I did Probus which LR mentioned and as you said,  there are women only Probus clubs. You left out Townswomens Guild, dread to think what shenanigans they get up to.

It's not the Presidents club itself that caused concern but the behaviour of the members (or some of them) on a particular night, enabled and sanctioned by the event organisers.

[floo]

Absolutely right, Floo, close these nasty men-only clubs down.  And while you're at it, close down dangerous organisations like Soroptomists and Womens Institutes  ... as well as women-only Probus Clubs.

Good idea, I would hate to go to an all woman club.

[jakswan]

I am sure this sort of thing is going on everywhere, not just in high places and with famous people. Every office, shop, restaurant, government office, army, police and every other work place where women work, many of them could be exploited in such manner or much worse. Most of them would not be wealthy, with no clout and with no one to listen to them or print their story.

In my department its not going on, as far as I'm aware in the company it isn't going on, the CEO would blow a fuse if it was.

It happens a lot but I work with companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook, most closely with Google and I don't see any of that sort of behaviour. In fact with Google the most senior people I've met have been women and I've only just realised that, their sex is irrelevant to their ability to do their job.

I used to work as a manager in heavy industry in the 1990s and yes I would see it then with reps from other companies, I'm sure it goes on today but in more modern industries its less of an issue.

When I next meet with a few staff I'll bring this up just to be sure, my perception might be off!

[Rhiannon]

I don’t know about the Townswomens Guild but the WI admits male members.

ETA only on their courses. Hmm.

[Harrowby Hall]

OK, I'll come clean. I am a member of a Probus Club. Yes, it is for retired professional and business men. In the same town is a women's Probus Club. And, in some cases, there are mixed Probus Clubs.

Let me talk about the club I know.

It is not the Presidents Club. The Presidents Club was (it appears to have been disbanded) a club for men possessing power, people excercising power on a daily basis. My guess is that these men's behaviour is influenced by testosterone. People with power - particularly those with power in formal organisations - like other people to know of their power. Some of them may behave in ways not dissimilar to stags, stallions and lions maintaining their harems. At an event at the Dorchester Hotel, free from the environmental context which constrains their behaviour, they let themselves relax in the presence of attractive, alluring, young women and some take the opportunity to be competitive ...

In my Probus Club there are men - some in their eighties and nineties - who are still sharp and intelligent. They are articulate and capable and are pleased to be able to spend time with others who share backgrounds. They offer each other friendship and warmth. There is no competition. The continued welfare of members is a significant factor which occupies the club. It is quite possible that for some, club meetings allay the loneliness the characterises their lives.

The club, in an undemonstrative manner, offers companionship and concern and mental stimulation to men that society in general has ceased to consider of prime importance, and when they have died, continues to do so to their widows.

[Rhiannon]

HH,

‘At an event at the Dorchester Hotel, free from the environmental context which constrains their behaviour, they let themselves relax in the presence of attractive, alluring, young women and some take the opportunity to be competitive ... ‘

Sexual harassment and assault is not ‘competition’. And this seems to be blaming the young women for being ‘alluring’, so what else could these poor relaxed men do in the face of such temptation?

[Nearly Sane]

HH,

‘At an event at the Dorchester Hotel, free from the environmental context which constrains their behaviour, they let themselves relax in the presence of attractive, alluring, young women and some take the opportunity to be competitive ... ‘

Sexual harassment and assault is not ‘competition’. And this seems to be blaming the young women for being ‘alluring’, so what else could these poor relaxed men do in the face of such temptation?

It seems interesting to me that this is so unshocking. And worse it is just what we think is ok

[Harrowby Hall]

Rhiannon

I was describing the situation, not condoning it. This is the second time in this thread that you have jumped to incorrect conclusions because, seemingly, you have mistaken narrative for involvement.

If you thought that you were reading my thoughts or analysing my motives then you were wrong. I am disgusted and depressed by the events at the Dorchester Hotel and condemn the men who behaved so despicably.

[Rhiannon]

Unless you were there, HH, and were involved, you are not describing what happened. You are explaining it according to your own beliefs.

Whether or not the women were young and alluring (really?) is irrelevant. As is whether this bunch of losers imagine themselves to be ‘alpha males’ or not.

I didn’t think for a moment you condone what happened. But your ‘explanation’ is unhelpful.

[Rhiannon]

It seems interesting to me that this is so unshocking. And worse it is just what we think is ok

Can’t tell you how often these things happened to me when I was younger. Hand up skirt, grope in a bar, hand in underwear, hand down top... get a lift home, you’re asking for it. Walk home, you’re asking for it. Have a drink, you’re asking for it. Go to the park, you’re asking for it. Don’t report it, you were asking for it.

Reality for me as a young woman. I’m lucky there’s no lasting damage. Just sadness.

[Harrowby Hall]

Unless you were there, HH, and were involved, you are not describing what happened. You are explaining it according to your own beliefs.

No. I am making a serious attempt to respond to Littleroses/Floo's statement about "mens clubs":

it is extraordinary that clubs with male members only are still functioning in the 21st century

 contrasting The Presidents Club - as portrayed in the press - with a Probus Club of which I am a member. If you bothered to read for context you would have understood that. Instead you choose to select choice phrases and imbue with an importance that - in context - is not there. You then take that selected phrase, power it with indignation and use it as a weapon. However, you don't say why you are firing the weapon nor what your target is?

Whether or not the women were young and alluring (really?) is irrelevant. As is whether this bunch of losers imagine themselves to be ‘alpha males’ or not.

What is relevant, then? What exactly is the point you are trying to make?

In a following post you relate experiences which were clearly painful - appending "you were asking for it".

Do you think that I used the word "allure" in a trivial way? Is that what brought this on?

The young women selected for this "event", first of all, had to be young, slim and tall. (Source - radio interview with a "hostess")

and then:

The uniform requirements also became more detailed: all hostesses should bring "BLACK sexy shoes", black underwear, and do their hair and make-up as they would to go to a "smart sexy place". Dresses and belts would be provided on the day.

[Rhiannon]

And still you don’t get it.

[Nearly Sane]

Can’t tell you how often these things happened to me when I was younger. Hand up skirt, grope in a bar, hand in underwear, hand down top... get a lift home, you’re asking for it. Walk home, you’re asking for it. Have a drink, you’re asking for it. Go to the park, you’re asking for it. Don’t report it, you were asking for it.

Reality for me as a young woman. I’m lucky there’s no lasting damage. Just sadness.

Yep, I know of no woman where this is different. And this sort of shit makes it all so normal, which it always is.

[Harrowby Hall]

And still you don’t get it.

"It" - in the context of this thread - could be any one of a DOZEN things. How can anyone "get" anything if you are not specific.

If I know what your specific concern is, then I can discuss it with you.

[floo]

I see the President's Club is closing, good.

[Aruntraveller]

I see the President's Club is closing, good.

I'm struggling with why charities are now rushing to return the money. I mean I get that they don't want to be associated with, or seem to be condoning the behaviour - but given that charities get money from all sorts of unknown sources, some of which could be equally morally suspect, why not take the money and at least make some good out of the vile behaviour that has been reported.

[floo]

I'm struggling with why charities are now rushing to return the money. I mean I get that they don't want to be associated with, or seem to be condoning the behaviour - but given that charities get money from all sorts of unknown sources, some of which could be equally morally suspect, why not take the money and at least make some good out of the vile behaviour that has been reported.

I don't get that either.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I see the President's Club is closing, good.

You'd actually heard of it?

[floo]

You'd actually heard of it?

I listen to the news, I think it is important to keep up with what is happening in this country and the world.