Sexual Abuse and Prominent People

[floo]

It is sad if men have to be encouraged to give their money to a good cause by ogling sexually attractive women who are encouraging them to do so. Surely they should be donating their money because it will benefit others.

[Rhiannon]

I’ve been to numerous black tie charity things over the years, at places like the Grosvenor House and the Guildhall, and the hosting staff have always been an even mix of make and female, dressed in standard waiting stuff (white shirt/blouse, black trousers/skirt) and something like a red waistcoat or to make them distinguishable from everyone else, including those that are there to serve food. Generally youngish, attractive-ish, but what always stands out is their confidence and ability to chat and laugh with guests while selling raffle tickets etc.

I’d find arriving somewhere and noticing all female hosting deeply weird and slightly creepy.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It is sad if men have to be encouraged to give their money to a good cause by ogling sexually attractive women who are encouraging them to do so. Surely they should be donating their money because it will benefit others.

I’m not a man so don’t know how much ogling is going on. Also not sure what you define as ‘ogling’ as opposed to appreciating attractiveness and finding it induces you to feel happier about buying more raffle tickets. There are  waiters and waitresses to serve the food or drinks, the main job of the hostesses is to fund raise. At my husband’s annual school Old Boys Charity ball the hostesses are asked to wear a black dress and given a sash to wear made up of the school colours and they wander round with their credit card machines and with raffle tickets for expensive prizes. There is no attempt by the guests to manhandle them as far as I know but it’s possible they have encountered unpleasant experiences with drunk men and handled it themselves and not complained. It’s certainly not our intention or expectation that the women are there to be assaulted or insulted and we expect everyone attending to show normal good manners.

We find holding the event at a more expensive hotel with attractive surroundings has the same effect of raising more money.

ETA: Ladies are welcome at these events and are very generous in their contributions to charity. It wouldn't surprise me if we would be more generous if a cute host was trying to sell us the idea of contributing more or buying more raffle tickets.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Like all narrow class and social movements the concern at sexual harrasment and pay equality it will peter out as soon as it has to confront the same goings on in lower class and social communities.

[Rhiannon]

Like all narrow class and social movements the concern at sexual harrasment and pay equality it will peter out as soon as it has to confront the same goings on in lower class and social communities.

The Presidents Club is rich men exploiting poor women.

Are you saying that nobody cares if it’s poor men exploiting poor women?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The Presidents Club is rich men exploiting poor women.

Are you saying that nobody cares if it’s poor men exploiting poor women?

I think if women are being assaulted or some other crime has been committed this should be investigated by the police, which can only happen if women come forward to make a statement to the police. In the current climate they have a good chance of being believed and the allegations investigated.

Not sure about the rich men exploiting poor women generalisation. I think some poor/rich women exploit some poor/ rich men as well.  Also if you are driving an expensive car or trying to go into an exclusive club or bar or spending a lot on alcohol, regardless of whether you are a man or a woman, there is a good chance attempts will be made to exploit you if you seem approachable.

[Rhiannon]

I think if women are being assaulted or some other crime has been committed this should be investigated by the police, which can only happen if women come forward to make a statement to the police. In the current climate they have a good chance of being believed and the allegations investigated.

Not sure about the rich men exploiting poor women generalisation. I think some poor/rich women exploit some poor/ rich men as well.  Also if you are driving an expensive car or trying to go into an exclusive club or bar or spending a lot on alcohol, regardless of whether you are a man or a woman, there is a good chance attempts will be made to exploit you if you seem approachable.

People exploit people, that’s a given. My response was to Vlad’s rather odd generalisation about class.

I think though that if you take hosting work it’s fair to say you don’t expect to be explored in the same way that you might if you took escort work instead. In fact with the latter it’s a two way thing - an escort knows what to expect and how to maximise what he or she gets from it. I wonder if having hostesses thrown into this furthers the power imbalance.

If I was reliant on agency work I’m not sure I’d go to the police but then maybe this particular agency won’t be around much longer - she must have breached employment law, surely. I believe so far one report has been made by a third party but the victim wouldn’t pursue it.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

People exploit people, that’s a given. My response was to Vlad’s rather odd generalisation about class.

I think though that if you take hosting work it’s fair to say you don’t expect to be explored in the same way that you might if you took escort work instead. In fact with the latter it’s a two way thing - an escort knows what to expect and how to maximise what he or she gets from it. I wonder if having hostesses thrown into this furthers the power imbalance.

If I was reliant on agency work I’m not sure I’d go to the police but then maybe this particular agency won’t be around much longer - she must have breached employment law, surely. I believe so far one report has been made by a third party but the victim wouldn’t pursue it.

True enough. I read that there were hostesses who were working on the night who were prepared to offer escort services. If that's true, not sure how the guests were advised on how to tell who was a hostess who was prepared to offer additional services. Any ideas?

ETA: Also, given the statement that a government minister should not be going to an event where women are only there for entertainment, if you take it down a class level - what do we think about a head teacher or a company boss going to a hen night where men are there only for entertainment, and where men are manhandled? These events are a valuable source of income to put food on the table for their children for many men and women who work in the hosting / entertainment industry.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/what-is-the-presidents-club-what-happened-at-the-charity-dinner-who-are-the-key-guest-list-members-a3749206.html

[Harrowby Hall]

If I was reliant on agency work I’m not sure I’d go to the police but then maybe this particular agency won’t be around much longer - she must have breached employment law, surely. I believe so far one report has been made by a third party but the victim wouldn’t pursue it.

One thing which concerns me about this case is that the young women were made to sign non-disclosure agreements which were - apparently - five pages long but were not given the opportunity to read them. Some of the women may well have intimidated by this and may even have believed that the agreements prevented them from making formal complaints about the treatment they received. The purpose of the agreement, apparently, is to protect the guilty.

Any form of assault is a criminal offence. The attempted enforcement of a non-disclosure agreement to prevent reporting such assaults should be regarded as a criminal act in itself - conspiring to obstruct the course of justice.

[floo]

I’m not a man so don’t know how much ogling is going on. Also not sure what you define as ‘ogling’ as opposed to appreciating attractiveness and finding it induces you to feel happier about buying more raffle tickets. There are  waiters and waitresses to serve the food or drinks, the main job of the hostesses is to fund raise. At my husband’s annual school Old Boys Charity ball the hostesses are asked to wear a black dress and given a sash to wear made up of the school colours and they wander round with their credit card machines and with raffle tickets for expensive prizes. There is no attempt by the guests to manhandle them as far as I know but it’s possible they have encountered unpleasant experiences with drunk men and handled it themselves and not complained. It’s certainly not our intention or expectation that the women are there to be assaulted or insulted and we expect everyone attending to show normal good manners.

We find holding the event at a more expensive hotel with attractive surroundings has the same effect of raising more money.

ETA: Ladies are welcome at these events and are very generous in their contributions to charity. It wouldn't surprise me if we would be more generous if a cute host was trying to sell us the idea of contributing more or buying more raffle tickets.

I would object to being told how to dress so that I would come over as attractive to the male of the species. I have always dressed to please myself.

[Rhiannon]

One thing which concerns me about this case is that the young women were made to sign non-disclosure agreements which were - apparently - five pages long but were not given the opportunity to read them. Some of the women may well have intimidated by this and may even have believed that the agreements prevented them from making formal complaints about the treatment they received. The purpose of the agreement, apparently, is to protect the guilty.

Any form of assault is a criminal offence. The attempted enforcement of a non-disclosure agreement to prevent reporting such assaults should be regarded as a criminal act in itself - conspiring to obstruct the course of justice.

Agree with this. I’ve seen an interview with a young woman who believed that the agreement meant she couldn’t even tell her mum about what had happened. Her mum rang police and they said that they had no reports of anything illegal.

Interestingly in this interview the young woman said she went back this year after pressure to attend. This feels like grooming and normalising of harassment to me. I get that, each time leaves you just that little bit more resigned, that little bit more defeated.

[Rhiannon]

True enough. I read that there were hostesses who were working on the night who were prepared to offer escort services. If that's true, not sure how the guests were advised on how to tell who was a hostess who was prepared to offer additional services. Any ideas?

ETA: Also, given the statement that a government minister should not be going to an event where women are only there for entertainment, if you take it down a class level - what do we think about a head teacher or a company boss going to a hen night where men are there only for entertainment, and where men are manhandled? These events are a valuable source of income to put food on the table for their children for many men and women who work in the hosting / entertainment industry.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/what-is-the-presidents-club-what-happened-at-the-charity-dinner-who-are-the-key-guest-list-members-a3749206.html

I’d rather stick pins in my eyes than go to a hen night so I’m not the best person to ask, but I think that strippers know what they are getting - a show like the Chippendales are strictly hands off, a strippergram will expect touching. I’ve heard some seriously sick stories about the latter but the ‘victim’ has generally been the person for whom the ‘act’ was a surprise booking.

Incidentally, I’ve never got what is ‘equal’ about women copying the worst of male behaviour, but what do I know.

[Aruntraveller]

, I’ve never got what is ‘equal’ about women copying the worst of male behaviour, but what do I know.

Agrre with this. It is strange now when I do venture into the city centre to see quite how widespread ladette culture has become, and sometimes how very vile it is.

Down more to changing social mores rather than anything to do with gende imo, depressing nonetheless.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Agrre with this. It is strange now when I do venture into the city centre to see quite how widespread ladette culture has become, and sometimes how very vile it is.

Down more to changing social mores rather than anything to do with gende imo, depressing nonetheless.

A case in point.

I cannot see the anti harassment movement tackling ladette behaviour or male behaviour described as abusive in it's main class and social group but which other communities might consider part of their ''culture''.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

One thing which concerns me about this case is that the young women were made to sign non-disclosure agreements which were - apparently - five pages long but were not given the opportunity to read them. Some of the women may well have intimidated by this and may even have believed that the agreements prevented them from making formal complaints about the treatment they received. The purpose of the agreement, apparently, is to protect the guilty.

Any form of assault is a criminal offence. The attempted enforcement of a non-disclosure agreement to prevent reporting such assaults should be regarded as a criminal act in itself - conspiring to obstruct the course of justice.

My understanding is that these agreements are intended to stop people from going to the press with tales of "I saw Lord X dancing on the table singing "Agadoo".

It is sadly quite common practice for employees to be expected to sign agreements without reading them properly, likewise Hire Purchase Agreements.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I’d rather stick pins in my eyes than go to a hen night so I’m not the best person to ask, but I think that strippers know what they are getting - a show like the Chippendales are strictly hands off, a strippergram will expect touching. I’ve heard some seriously sick stories about the latter but the ‘victim’ has generally been the person for whom the ‘act’ was a surprise booking.

Incidentally, I’ve never got what is ‘equal’ about women copying the worst of male behaviour, but what do I know.

I've always ducked out of hen nights if invited, I didn't have one myself, and the only one I organised did not include anyone taking their clothes off....or drinking come to think of it...just food and lots of dancing at a club.

I agree about ladette behaviour being irritating - I guess some women want to dispel the stereotype of ladies being expected to be the gentler sex or having good manners and they want to project a different identity. A lot of these changes in society is about being free to assume an identity of your choice. (As an aside - the media give the impression that more people these days seem to frown on white people blacking up, which I don't understand - it's just assuming an identity - I thought Ali G was funny, my kids think Ali G is funny, but there you go.)

This situation of some hostesses working there being willing to provide additional services, make extra money etc while others were not - how will men know either way unless they ask?

ETA - I remember in my 2nd job, the head of the futures brokerage desk - I worked in his Middle Office - asking me if I wanted to go with him and the boys to Stringfellows after the Christmas party, which was at the Dorchester. I politely declined and drove home but a couple of ladies went. Not sure why they would want to go to Stringfellows but now I'm curious about how everyone behaved when they did go to that establishment - did the inebriated "boys" treat them like colleagues - lots of banter but nothing more - or did the inebriated "girls" end up sitting on their colleagues' laps and being groped in that atmosphere.

[Sriram]

Once it is agreed that many women (and some men presumably) have to keep their personal morals and sense of disgust aside just so they can make some money and feed their families....then anything goes, I should think. Where does it stop? Its up to the individual concerned.

And many of the famous actresses who are now blaming their producers probably did just that at the beginning of their careers!  Once they have made their millions they can afford to fish out their morals from the attic and get all indignant,  I suppose. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Personally I think it would do Society a great service if men started a #MeToo about all the women who have used sexual power to manipulate and exploit them - I think both men and women should stop all this manipulation and exploitation in personal relationships- it’s challenging enough trying to navigate it in business encounters. They may use different methods and men might be cruder but the intent to control and manipulate a human encounter is similar.

If women can proposition men and some men and women welcome being propositioned I fail to see why some of the women at the President’s Club felt outraged at being propositioned. How is a man supposed to know if you are up for it unless he asks?

[Harrowby Hall]

I understand where you are coming from, Gabriella, but isn't a major concern here the difference in power between senior City executives and students trying to supplement their loans and allawances?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

My understanding is that these agreements are intended to stop people from going to the press with tales of "I saw Lord X dancing on the table singing "Agadoo".

Anybody else see the irony of Lord X asking someone to sign away their rights to provide Lords Y and Z copy for their papers to publish?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I understand where you are coming from, Gabriella, but isn't a major concern here the difference in power between senior City executives and students trying to supplement their loans and allawances?

Oh absolutely I agree society should express disapproval to stop abuse of power - the waitresses were told to let the agency person at the event know if any of the men tried to assault them and a minority of men obviously behaved badly towards women who were not interested in doing any more than doing a professional job and going home. I don’t think it did much good telling hostesses to report inappropriate behaviour as it seems some hostesses tried to handle any groping themselves rather than down tools and the non-disclosure agreement should have had next to the signature strip something to say sexual assault or harassment should be reported.

I am just not clear what happens in a situation where some women are prepared to offer additional services and are working alongside women who aren’t. How does a man know unless he asks, anymore than how does a woman know a man will buy her a drink or pay off part of her student loan unless she asks either for a drink or money or both? It seems some women were appalled that other women were allowing themselves to be groped.

I think the damage done by women to men in denying them relationships with their children and in false accusations of assault or rape is far worse than anything that happened at the President’s Club. Having worked and socialised with executives - the majority of them behaved perfectly reasonably and probably have better things to do than grooe women - it’s the minority that have made headlines and been sensationalised to paint a caricature IMO.

[Rhiannon]

If women can proposition men and some men and women welcome being propositioned I fail to see why some of the women at the President’s Club felt outraged at being propositioned. How is a man supposed to know if you are up for it unless he asks?

Because they were there to work, not to be picked up. Different thing for women who are also guests such as you would usually find at a corporate event, as the playing field is somewhat level, but this one was men only and the young women on zero hours contracts with little protection should they decide to walk out. That some apparently didn't mind being picked up isn't relevant given that a willingness to go to hotel rooms wasn't in the job description. And according to reports the 'jobs' some were offered by the men picking them up were nannying (yeah, right) or paid mistress.

[floo]

Whilst there is never any excuse for sexual abuse or harassment, some women put themselves in danger by wearing clothes, which give predatory males the 'come on'. 

[Rhiannon]

Whilst there is never any excuse for sexual abuse or harassment, some women put themselves in danger by wearing clothes, which give predatory males the 'come on'. 

FFS.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Because they were there to work, not to be picked up. Different thing for women who are also guests such as you would usually find at a corporate event, as the playing field is somewhat level, but this one was men only and the young women on zero hours contracts with little protection should they decide to walk out. That some apparently didn't mind being picked up isn't relevant given that a willingness to go to hotel rooms wasn't in the job description. And according to reports the 'jobs' some were offered by the men picking them up were nannying (yeah, right) or paid mistress.

Some women don’t want it that clear cut - male or female admin staff hook up with people more senior, male and female interns hook up with permanent staff, male and female bar and waiting staff hook up with guests - the evidence doesn’t really support your ideal that we’re all just here to work and nothing more. The workplace is one of the key places to hook up.

I think the contract should make clear that sexual assault is a criminal act that should be reported and leave it up to men and women and the courts to figure out whether a criminal act took place. We can of course be appalled by sexist, boorish behaviour when we encounter it as much as we are by a minority of ladettes intimidating vulnerable men and women.