Sexual Abuse and Prominent People

[Aruntraveller]

Well it still sounds an awful lot like victim blaming to me.

Still perhaps she can pull together a handy guide for women on how to dress to avoid unwanted attention.

[floo]

Well it still sounds an awful lot like victim blaming to me.

Still perhaps she can pull together a handy guide for women on how to dress to avoid unwanted attention.

Whatever!

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I thought the point is to blame the victim.   Why else mention clothing?

Well I’d say apart from the point that dressing a certain way is one way of drawing attention to yourself, which could bring you to the attention of a predator who may target you and commit a crime against you if they find the opportunity to get you by yourself, and it’s easier for them if you also happen to be drunk, your dress and level of sobriety could make you more vulnerable if you can’t fight or escape. I generally find I can run away from danger faster sober, in jeans and trainers  than a dress and heels. That goes for men too - I would advise them to not draw attention to themselves and to wear trousers and flat shoes over a dress and heels.

What they are wearing is still not a mitigating factor to be used by a criminal.

[Aruntraveller]

Whatever!

Ah - incisive as ever.

Just let the female of the species know the best way to dress to avoid bothersome males. You must know because you've already given advice on the subject.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Well it still sounds an awful lot like victim blaming to me.

Still perhaps she can pull together a handy guide for women on how to dress to avoid unwanted attention.

I would object to being told how to dress so that I would come over as attractive to the male of the species. I have always dressed to please myself.

So surely the answer is to dress like Floo? 

[Aruntraveller]

That goes for men too - I would advise them to not draw attention to themselves and to wear trousers and flat shoes over a dress and heels.

There goes my fun nights out.

[Rhiannon]

My point is if a woman is wearing very sexually explicit clothes, which don't leave anything to the imagination, she is likely to attract the attention of perverts, not that it is any excuse for them to attack her. I don't see that making that point is a bad thing.

Define what you regard as ‘very sexually explicit clothes’.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

No, if you apportion blame to someone for being stupid who then gets assaulted you are saying that it is somehow different to an assault on someone you judge not to be doing something stupid.

It’s been discussed on here before how women are supposed to modify their behaviour all the time. So if a man gets assaulted walking home from the pub it’s seen as unfair and wrong; if the same thing happens to a woman it’s unfair and wrong but why didn’t she get a cab for god’s sake?

Is that because a woman being raped is worse than a woman being beaten up? Or is that because people assume a men has a better chance of defending himself or less chance of being targeted by a predator because a woman is considered an easier prey?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Hasn't some of this idea come from the other general presumption that we have covered here that males are all potential rapists?

i don’t think all EDL supporters are potentially violent people but I still wouldn’t walk into a bar frequented by EDL supporters while wearing hijab as the violent one is unlikely to be wearing a sign to let me know he’s violent.

[Aruntraveller]

i don’t think all EDL supporters are potentially violent people

I don't share your optimism.

Leaving aside that surely all people are potentially violent?

[Harrowby Hall]

My point is if a woman is wearing very sexually explicit clothes, which don't leave anything to the imagination, she is likely to attract the attention of perverts, not that it is any excuse for them to attack her. I don't see that making that point is a bad thing.

If we are still talking about the Presidents Club event, we should remember that all the young women were required to dress themselves in was black underwear and sexy" shoes.

The agency provided the dresses ...  and belts.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Is that because a woman being raped is worse than a woman being beaten up? Or is that because people assume a men has a better chance of defending himself or less chance of being targeted by a predator because a woman is considered an easier prey?

Round of applause.

Puts "Feminism" where it belongs-into a small discussion room on a Friday Evening.

[Rhiannon]

Round of applause.

Puts "Feminism" where it belongs-into a small discussion room on a Friday Evening.

How does it do that exactly?

[Rhiannon]

Is that because a woman being raped is worse than a woman being beaten up? Or is that because people assume a men has a better chance of defending himself or less chance of being targeted by a predator because a woman is considered an easier prey?

I have no idea - you’d need to ask people who feel that way. As an aside, I used the term ‘assault’ here to cover everything from a slap in the face to sexual assault and rape, for both genders.

As a mother I’m as fearful for my son as for my girls.

[Nearly Sane]

My point is if a woman is wearing very sexually explicit clothes, which don't leave anything to the imagination, she is likely to attract the attention of perverts, not that it is any excuse for them to attack her. I don't see that making that point is a bad thing.

I just don't see the relevance. If how a woman is dressed is irrelevant to an assault, then why raise the 'point'.

[Nearly Sane]

Round of applause.

Puts "Feminism" where it belongs-into a small discussion room on a Friday Evening.

Not sure it does anything of the sort, even if that would make you happy.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I don't share your optimism.

Leaving aside that surely all people are potentially violent?

Yes but I was thinking there was a greater chance of me encountering violence if I walked into a bar full of EDL supporters wearing a hijab than if I walked in without the hijab. In that environment the hijab would draw attention to me and make me more of a target. The hijab would not be a mitigating factor if one of them were to assault me and neither would it be victim-blaming IMO to advise me that it would be more sensible to not walk into that bar wearing a hijab.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes but I was thinking there was a greater chance of me encountering violence if I walked into a bar full of EDL supporters wearing a hijab than if I walked in without the hijab. In that environment the hijab would draw attention to me and make me more of a target. The hijab would not be a mitigating factor if one of them were to assault me and neither would it be victim-blaming IMO to advise me that it would be more sensible to not walk into that bar wearing a hijab.

I'm not sure the analogy works unless you do want to go down the line that all men at various social events are see sexual assault in the same way as an EDL pub group might think of Muslims wearing a hijab.


I wouldn't advise someone wearing an opposite Old Firm T-shirt in various pubs in Glasgow but I don't see that is the equivalent of what seems to apply here that women shouldn't wear certain clothes in general social situations.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I have no idea - you’d need to ask people who feel that way. As an aside, I used the term ‘assault’ here to cover everything from a slap in the face to sexual assault and rape, for both genders.

As a mother I’m as fearful for my son as for my girls.

If I heard a woman had been beaten up I react the same way as if I heard a man had been beaten up. I would take more precautions to try and protect myself from the risk of being raped than I would take if I thought I might just get beaten up. I’ve had someone threaten to hit me with a cosh in front of a crowd and in the heat of the moment I pointed to my chin and told him to take his best shot. If someone threatened to rape me I would never tell them to take their best shot at raping me.

If women are advised to modify their behaviour it is because the media portray women as more devastated by rape compared to the way they portray men or women who have been beaten up. The worse the potential outcome, the more safeguards people take against that outcome.

On top of that the women who are attacked are attacked by men who are bigger and stronger than them. My 6 foot female friend was not beaten up by any of her boy friends who were shorter than her but she was beaten up by a boyfriend who was bigger and stronger than her. A predator is more likely to go after a weaker prey and is statistically more likely to come across a smaller, weaker woman before they come across s smaller, weaker man. Plus there are less men who want to have sex with men rather than women so there is less likelihood of a predator man wanting to have sex with male prey rather than female prey. Once you know the stats about sexual attacks on women you tend to modify your behaviour accordingly to avoid becoming another statistic.

Finally, men have to modify their behaviour too based on stats. Any guy who hates fighting and has an idea of the statistical likelihood of getting into a fight will modify his behaviour.  When I was younger I was aware that there were certain areas of London you just could not go to if you were male and of a particular colour due to skinhead gangs roaming around. If you were a girl you might get jeers or someone spitting towards you but if you were a boy you were actively disrespecting them by being in
their territory and you would probably get your head kicked in. And absolutely Asian boys would be advised to not walk around those areas and if they did go in those areas and were beaten up their family would be saying why did you not take a different route or stay somewhere safe or get a lift rather than walking.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I'm not sure the analogy works unless you do want to go down the line that all men at various social events are see sexual assault in the same way as an EDL pub group might think of Muslims wearing a hijab.


I wouldn't advise someone wearing an opposite Old Firm T-shirt in various pubs in Glasgow but I don't see that is the equivalent of what seems to apply here that women shouldn't wear certain clothes in general social situations.

I don’t know if that was the point Floo was making. Women should be safe if they can protect themselves or if other people will step in to protect them regardless of what they are wearing. My advice to my kids is that opportunity more than clothes is what could make the difference between becoming a victim and not and you can’t control all possible opportunities. So even if you were wearing something that really draws attention to yourself you are far less likely to get hurt if you are surrounded by bodyguards as a predator won’t have the opportunity to prey on you. But if you’re alone regardless of what you are wearing a predator has more opportunities to prey on you, if you are unlucky enough to cross the path of a predator. I really don’t see that advice to be aware of your surroundings and aware of potentially risky decisions as victim-blaming.

[Nearly Sane]

I don’t know if that was the point Floo was making. Women should be safe if they can protect themselves or if other people will step in to protect them regardless of what they are wearing. My advice to my kids is that opportunity more than clothes is what could make the difference between becoming a victim and not and you can’t control all possible opportunities. So even if you were wearing something that really draws attention to yourself you are far less likely to get hurt if you are surrounded by bodyguards as a predator won’t have the opportunity to prey on you. But if you’re alone regardless of what you are wearing a predator has more opportunities to prey on you, if you are unlucky enough to cross the path of a predator. I really don’t see that advice to be aware of your surroundings and aware of potentially risky decisions as victim-blaming.

Which relates back to me not understanding the point Floo is trying to make.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Which relates back to me not understanding the point Floo is trying to make.

I think her point was that wearing certain clothes draws more attention to you than to people wearing less attention-grabbing clothes, and amongst all the attention you are attracting you might have caught the attention of a predator. Which still would not matter if the predator does not get an opportunity to get to you.

[Nearly Sane]

I think her point was that wearing certain clothes draws more attention to you than to people wearing less attention-grabbing clothes, and amongst all the attention you are attracting you might have caught the attention of a predator. Which still would not matter if the predator does not get an opportunity to get to you.

Which has already been covered in that if this is an attack from some predator whatever might attract them in this sense could be anything.  I still don't see any relevant point to what is worn on this context, especially given Floo's phrasing.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Which has already been covered in that if this is an attack from some predator whatever might attract them in this sense could be anything.  I still don't see any relevant point to what is worn on this context, especially given Floo's phrasing.

I'm not sure Floo's point was just based on attacks - Floo said sexual assault or harassment. As harassment is very subjective - if you don't mind the comments you don't feel harassed - base don my experience if I wear a sexy black dress I get far more notice, attention and comments than when I am in jeans and a shirt or in a dress that is not sexy.

For the dress to be considered sexy it needs to be revealing, so when I wore a long black clingy dress with a slit up to half way up my thigh and heels that elongated my legs and the top part of the dress was strappy and moderately low cut I had a guy who has seen me in jeans on many occasions and acted like he did not see me in a sexual way, telling me how he would like to lick champagne off part of my anatomy, even though  he knew I was going out with the person who went on to become my husband and who was his friend. He apologised to me the next day and said he had been drinking and would never have said it if he had been sober, which was what I figured at the time so I hadn't taken offence.

If I want attention - black, clingy, revealing dresses and heels work.

I think the way I would reason it is if predators are men, and men are more attracted to black, clingy, revealing - then it seems likely that that choice of clothing will attract more attention from predators.

it doesn't mean that not dressing that way will guarantee safety for the reasons already stated, but the more you get noticed the more someone may perceive you as a target, and the way you dress is just one way of getting noticed.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Just to add that in date rape cases third parties who were not present at the time of the alleged rape have to be convinced that the accused knew that the alleged victim did not consent to sex.  In order to build a case about what the accused should have known or not know, you have to explore what was going through the minds of both parties prior to the alleged rape - in which case you have to look at cues such as what dd they see, hear say, touch, feel prior to the alleged attack. Which is why clothing and behaviour is examined - because clothing and behaviour can provide information about what a person was thinking or what perceptions they could create in the mind of another person.