It doesn't happen here...

[Rhiannon]

I could have written some of this. Anyone who says that this isn't how it is for women is lying.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/11/my-whole-life-has-been-marked-by-sexual-harassment---just-like-all-women

[Robbie]

It is exactly how it is.

[Maeght]

Shocking.

[Shaker]

Not to me.

Just ... depressing.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Rhi,

This is on point:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-41587741/jez-butterworth-s-message-to-harvey-weinstein

[Harrowby Hall]

Rhi,

This is on point:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-41587741/jez-butterworth-s-message-to-harvey-weinstein

It's a pity that the American population doesn't deal with its president, who has admitted behaving in a similar manner to that of Harvey Weinstein, in the way it has dealt with the movie mogul.

[floo]

It's a pity that the American population doesn't deal with its president, who has admitted behaving in a similar manner to that of Harvey Weinstein, in the way it has dealt with the movie mogul.

I agree.

[Rhiannon]

And again we've got away from it being the norm, and here, and made it about unusually powerful men and the women that come under their influence one way or another.

[Nearly Sane]

And again we've got away from it being the norm, and here, and made it about unusually powerful men and the women that come under their influence one way or another.

I suppose big cases are easy things to appeal to. Further it's the very widespread nature of this which would seem to mean that unusually powerful men might act this way because at base the only difference from others is the power. Also many of the everyday acts of sexual abuse are either carried out because people feel that they have power, even low level, that gives them immunity, or would like to assert they have such power.


I think there is an idea that because we have dome high profile cases that have resulted in action that people can feel we are changing. That what has happened in the last 50 years and before was then, and we have moved onto some sunlit uplands of morality. And yet as this idea is touted, we see new impacts of the availability of porn and the sexualization of children. When that is pointed out as if it is a sign of a new depravity, it's vacuous. It's the old depravity in a new Donna Karen dress asking for the old abuse.


ETA: And there is the use of the various grooming cases to blame other subcultures, while we ignore the complicity if some in our own culture where those who ate barely out of childhood can be regarded as sluts to be either ignored or dismissed. So much of these are feedback loops that allow the continued casual sexual abuse of women.

[Udayana]

And again we've got away from it being the norm, and here, and made it about unusually powerful men and the women that come under their influence one way or another.

The other day I heard part^* of a dial-in talk show where mothers described how their junior school children were being sexually assaulted and bullied, mainly by other under 10s.

It was clear that no one, parents, teachers, police had any idea of how to deal with this or protect these children and I suspect this continues on in a similar way for teens and adults. It is only the rare case, usually rape, that eventually ends up in court. Occurrences were not even documented.

Focus on the high profile cases could be used to get the issue out for discussion, but also ends up being a distraction from the daily harassment. 

Probably we need to accept that this is how people are, then, to change it, we need zero tolerance and immediate intervention in all occurrences, even given the possible downsides.

* I confess my immediate reaction was: this is horrible and not something I want to listen to or think about.

[Rhiannon]

I didn't notice much sexual bullying at primary age, and not for my kids either although every other kind was rife.

At senior school though sexual assault was just something that happened. I was sexually assaulted in a park by someone the same age as me and I didn't dream of reporting it because the message I got was that kids didn't get punishec for assaulting other kids - if it has been an adult I'd have done differently. I'm afraid it affected my parenting - I wouldn't let my kids go to the park alone not because I was afraid of what adults might do, but of what their peers could, and in my experience probably would do.

[Nearly Sane]

Men should fucking weep!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41605935

[Maeght]

Men should fucking weep!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41605935

Everyone should weep at that regardless of sex. But I don't feel any association with the perpetrators just because they are the same sex as me.

[floo]

Men should fucking weep!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41605935

Terrible.

[Shaker]

Everyone should weep at that regardless of sex. But I don't feel any association with the perpetrators just because they are the same sex as me.

My first thought too. I'm not a believer in collective guilt.

[Nearly Sane]

Everyone should weep at that regardless of sex. But I don't feel any association with the perpetrators just because they are the same sex as me.

Mmm I don't think it's about collective guilt but rather a collective issue. It's overwhelmingly men that carry out this kind ot attack and the toleration of low level sexual abuse as covered in the OP is part of that.

[Shaker]

Mmm I don't think it's about collective guilt but rather a collective issue. It's overwhelmingly men that carry out this kind ot attack and the toleration of low level sexual abuse as covered in the OP is part of that.

I still disagree.

Certainly I'm in that set known as 'men', but the clowns in the article just linked to don't act for me or speak for me or have any affinity with me beyond the same complement of chromosomes.  That goes for the vast majority of men too.

On the other hand if by a collective issue you mean it behoves all men - when necessary and where it'll do the most good - to speak up and speak out against inappropriately sexual behaviour, to condemn it and to be seen to condemn it, then obviously yes, of course. A certain tendency toward what can look like corporate guilt still concerns me, though.

[Nearly Sane]

I still disagree.

Certainly I'm in that set known as 'men', but the clowns in the article just linked to don't act for me or speak for me or have any affinity with me beyond the same complement of chromosomes.  That goes for the vast majority of men too.

On the other hand if by a collective issue you mean it behoves all men - when necessary and where it'll do the most good - to speak up and speak out against inappropriately sexual behaviour, to condemn it and to be seen to condemn it, then obviously yes, of course. A certain tendency toward what can look like corporate guilt still concerns me, though.

I presume you meant collective, rather than corporate, guilt? The point again is that this idea that it's such a rare group of men, or it's so entirely aberrant doesn't seem to me to be borne out. Hence the OP in the thread. And what you see as a 'tendency' may well concern you but seems entirely irrelevant to what I was raising. We obviously don't do enough to combat casual everyday sexism and harassment, and I don't feel it as easy to give myself the little pat on my back that you feel confident to give yourself about whether I fo enough.

[Shaker]

I presume you meant collective, rather than corporate, guilt? The point again is that this idea that it's such a rare group of men, or it's so entirely aberrant doesn't seem to me to be borne out. Hence the OP in the thread. And what you see as a 'tendency' may well concern you but seems entirely irrelevant to what I was raising. We obviously don't do enough to combat casual everyday sexism and harassment

Who's the 'we' and what can 'we' meaningfully do?

I don't feel it as easy to give myself the little pat on my back that you feel confident to give yourself about whether I fo enough.

Up to you. My hands are clean and conscience clear.

[Rhiannon]

Jokes about the female body and comments about sex acts by females (famous or otherwise) have been posted on this forum and I find them a form of aggression. But I guess I should just suck that one up because that is what woman are supposed to do.

Just a joke, right?

[Nearly Sane]

Who's the 'we' and what can 'we' meaningfully do?Up to you. My hands are clean and conscience clear.

I am more interested in how we, as a society, improve the  situation than thinking just how wonderful I am.

[Shaker]

I am more interested in how we, as a society, improve the  situation than thinking just how wonderful I am.

Beyond not acting like an inappropriate arsehole to/without/around women I'm all ears as to your suggestions.

[Nearly Sane]

Jokes about the female body and comments about sex acts by females (famous or otherwise) have been posted on this forum and I find them a form of aggression. But I guess I should just suck that one up because that is what woman are supposed to do.

Just a joke, right?

No. Which is part of the problem. We allow things because we are not censoring on the basis of offence, but that then means we might be allowing things that are harmful in other ways. There isn't an easy way of deciding what is 'wrong' in these circumstances. But that isn't a reason not to try. One of the issues that we (and by this we I mean the mods) have tried to deal with more proactively for a while is accusations and jokes about mental health, perhaps we need to do the sane about casual sexism.

I am deeply conscious of the fact that the mod team is all male currently and we have tried to change that in the past but to no avail. In part the ratio of men to women on the forum causes this problem, and not every one wants to be a mod, and to be honest, I often don't want to be one either.

[Nearly Sane]

Beyond not acting like an inappropriate arsehole to/without/around women I'm all ears as to your suggestions.

Surely though what being an 'inappropriate arsehole' is what people define in so many different ways, that having it as some sort of principle is meaningless?

[Rhiannon]

I found it difficult as a mod not to leave myself open to accusations of pushing my own agenda of some kind of prudish feminism. So I didn't act on the sexist jokes made here, some which I felt disgusted by.