Spirit photography

[Shaker]

you had to be there for that one !!!!!!!!!!

I think it wore off.

[Sriram]

I don't think that is true - before Newton people both experienced and recognised gravity.

What Newton did was to describe and explain it.

I don't think the common people in any part of the world were aware that some force was pulling them down towards the earth. They would have just taken it for granted.

It was after Newton that people objectively understood gravity as a force. The detailed calculations and laws given by Newton are a different matter.

There are many such natural phenomena including medical and physiological facts that have been taken for granted by people all these centuries....many of which we don't recognise even now.

My point is that what we call evidence becomes meaningful only if and when we recognise it and associate it with some specific phenomenon. Till then we might be seeing and experiencing it everyday but will not connect it to the relevant phenomenon.

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't think the common people in any part of the world were aware that some force was pulling them down towards the earth.

Of course they were aware of it. And indeed the need to take account of gravity in all sorts of everyday activities, ranging from building homes and structures that didn't fall down through to knowing where to aim an arrow or spear to hit a distant object (the clue being not straight at it).

They would have just taken it for granted.

So constantly aware of gravity were they that it became second nature, taken for granted if you will. But you don't take something for granted that you aren't aware of.

[Walter]

sriram

this is becoming tedious and repetitive , until you understand and accept reality as explained , not how you would like it to be , then there is little point in me addressing your posts. have a nice day

[Sriram]

Of course they were aware of it. And indeed the need to take account of gravity in all sorts of everyday activities, ranging from building homes and structures that didn't fall down through to knowing where to aim an arrow or spear to hit a distant object (the clue being not straight at it).
So constantly aware of gravity were they that it became second nature, taken for granted if you will. But you don't take something for granted that you aren't aware of.

No...even animals and birds live according to the laws of gravity. Does not mean they are aware of gravity or that they understand it objectively.

[Nearly Sane]

No...even animals and birds live according to the laws of gravity. Does not mean they are aware of gravity or that they understand it objectively.

So whenever someone dropped a hammer on their toe, they weren't aware of gravity? And BTW we still don't understand gravity objectively .

[Maeght]

Nice to know that you are finally agreeing with me..
even though you had disagreed to the same thought in post 179.

No I didn't. Take another look.

Even to recognise 'evidence' people need to have the right attitude. Evidence is only what we are willing to recognise as evidence for something. People have been experiencing gravity for millennia but till Newton pointed it out no one recognised it.

Science and evidence are not as straight forward as we tend to think.

Cheers.

Sriram

I know.

[ippy]

I don't think the common people in any part of the world were aware that some force was pulling them down towards the earth. They would have just taken it for granted.

It was after Newton that people objectively understood gravity as a force. The detailed calculations and laws given by Newton are a different matter.

There are many such natural phenomena including medical and physiological facts that have been taken for granted by people all these centuries....many of which we don't recognise even now.

My point is that what we call evidence becomes meaningful only if and when we recognise it and associate it with some specific phenomenon. Till then we might be seeing and experiencing it everyday but will not connect it to the relevant phenomenon.

Apparently we are being pushed down on to the Earth by distorted space and time, warped space if you like, and so I'm informed this description of how we manage to keep our feet on the ground fits in with that famous equation of Einstein's.

No I can't get my head around that one but the maths has been accepted by all quarters in the world of mathematics, so is seems to me to be a whole lot better than a guess, I believe Einstein was just a little in front of Newton.

Regards ippy

[SusanDoris]

This is a bit of a tangent, but I think perhaps Sriram might find it amenable to his views.
There is a book called 'The Cosmic Hologram' and the author is featured in November on GH. I looked it up and my heart sank as I read what it is about, and even more so when I read on Amazon, 'people who bought this also bought....' followed by a series of titles whose bizarre, mystic-type contents make one realise just how many gullible people there are.

There was also a short interview with the author of 'The Cosmic Hologram', complete with as many everything-is consciousness-type phrases as she could cram in, arm waving and a totally woo way of speaking.

If Sriram cares to watch it, I imagine it might even make him wince!

Edited to add that I have jjust watched part of a Jerry Coyne video to cheer me up!!

[Sriram]

It's not so much that science rules them out, more that there is nothing substantive to rule them in.

Consciousness/self in themselves do not imply baggage, but it is the claim that such things are independent of body that introduces unnecessary woo to the terms.

That's just a hugely naive analogy, as I've pointed out many a time.  In reality, the two aspects of being are intimately and tightly related, like two sides of the same coin.

I can agree that the car analogy is limited in the sense that the spirit and body are not really as independently separate and different as a person and his car.  That analogy was only meant to illustrate how the spirit uses the body and once it leaves the body, the body is like an abandoned car. It rots and gets destroyed.

The spirit and the body are connected and the spirit evolves and develops only through the body.   

[Walter]

The spirit and the body are connected and the spirit evolves and develops only through the body.

why do you think baseless assertions are acceptable to people with critical thinking skills?[/quote]

[ippy]

I can agree that the car analogy is limited in the sense that the spirit and body are not really as independently separate and different as a person and his car.  That analogy was only meant to illustrate how the spirit uses the body and once it leaves the body, the body is like an abandoned car. It rots and gets destroyed.

The spirit and the body are connected and the spirit evolves and develops only through the body.

Sriram, you seem to be so fully informed about this idea you keep referring to, I was thinking and I wondered where you managed to acquire all of this knowledge from?

You do seem to have a lot of detailed knowledge about this "spirit" idea you keep, on and on, telling us about?

Oh yes and how would anyone know that the spirit had evolved and developed through the body and only through the body?

Strikes me you're wandering into Vladland, where anyone would be entitled to say there's just as much evidence for pixieland, unicornland or lepichaunland as there is for your land of the spirits, the only difference between you and Vlad with a statement like this is, you're probably are more likely to understand what I'm saying, even though you may well not like what I'm saying.

Regards ippy. 

[Sriram]

Sriram, you seem to be so fully informed about this idea you keep referring to, I was thinking and I wondered where you managed to acquire all of this knowledge from?

You do seem to have a lot of detailed knowledge about this "spirit" idea you keep, on and on, telling us about?

Oh yes and how would anyone know that the spirit had evolved and developed through the body and only through the body?

Strikes me you're wandering into Vladland, where anyone would be entitled to say there's just as much evidence for pixieland, unicornland or lepichaunland as there is for your land of the spirits, the only difference between you and Vlad with a statement like this is, you're probably are more likely to understand what I'm saying, even though you may well not like what I'm saying.

Regards ippy.

Its quite easy if you know how!   

[ippy]

Its quite easy if you know how!   

That's good to hear Sriram, perhaps you will now fill us in with all of the details, I'm sure there are a lot of posters here, other than myself would find this"know how" of yours very interesting, especially when we are able to test your words and see how useful this kind of knowledge can be.

Looking to your enlightening expose of the working methods, should be a first, shouldn't it Sriram? Who knows you could be entering a hall of fame?

Regards ippy

[Sriram]

That's good to hear Sriram, perhaps you will now fill us in with all of the details, I'm sure there are a lot of posters here, other than myself would find this"know how" of yours very interesting, especially when we are able to test your words and see how useful this kind of knowledge can be.

Looking to your enlightening expose of the working methods, should be a first, shouldn't it Sriram? Who knows you could be entering a hall of fame?

Regards ippy

Tut..Tut! You have not been paying attention ippy!  I have written about this several times on these boards.  Well...never mind! 

First thing you need to understand is that.... there is such a thing as secular spirituality independent of religion. Hmmm..difficult?! Thought so.

Once you get past that...you need to get off your rocking chair and start doing some Yoga, Pranayama and meditations. Not necessarily in the Himalayas but in you own town will do. Also, some charity work, fasting, preferably move towards vegetarianism.

After some years of that...you can take up study of Samkhya and Yoga philosophies. Maybe also Vedanta,  Jainism and Buddhism while you are about it. 

Once you are through with all this...you will automatically understand what I am talking about. 

Cheers.

Sriram

[Aruntraveller]

Tut..Tut! You have not been paying attention ippy!  I have written about this several times on these boards.  Well...never mind! 

First thing you need to understand is that.... there is such a thing as secular spirituality independent of religion. Hmmm..difficult?! Thought so.

Once you get past that...you need to get off your rocking chair and start doing some Yoga, Pranayama and meditations. Not necessarily in the Himalayas but in you own town will do. Also, some charity work, fasting, preferably move towards vegetarianism.

After some years of that...you can take up study of Samkhya and Yoga philosophies. Maybe also Vedanta,  Jainism and Buddhism while you are about it. 

Once you are through with all this...you will automatically understand what I am talking about. 

Cheers.

Sriram

After that you can move on to studying patronization.

[ippy]

Tut..Tut! You have not been paying attention ippy!  I have written about this several times on these boards.  Well...never mind! 

First thing you need to understand is that.... there is such a thing as secular spirituality independent of religion. Hmmm..difficult?! Thought so.

Once you get past that...you need to get off your rocking chair and start doing some Yoga, Pranayama and meditations. Not necessarily in the Himalayas but in you own town will do. Also, some charity work, fasting, preferably move towards vegetarianism.

After some years of that...you can take up study of Samkhya and Yoga philosophies. Maybe also Vedanta,  Jainism and Buddhism while you are about it. 

Once you are through with all this...you will automatically understand what I am talking about. 

Cheers.

Sriram

I noted your declaration/assertion: "there is such a thing as secular spirituality independent of religion", yes and how does this fit in with your 'spirit's' connection with the body declaration/ assertion and do tell me why your words shouldn't read: your 'pixie's' connection with the body declaration/ assertion in the same way.

Kindest of sincere regards ippy

[Walter]

After that you can move on to studying patronization.

did you know?: it is possible to make slippers out of fog !

[Walter]

And it's taken 264 posts to end up in this cul- de -sac of absolute total shite

Sriram , you should be ashamed of your self 😡😡😤😤

[Sriram]

I noted your declaration/assertion: "there is such a thing as secular spirituality independent of religion", yes and how does this fit in with your 'spirit's' connection with the body declaration/ assertion and do tell me why your words shouldn't read: your 'pixie's' connection with the body declaration/ assertion in the same way.

Kindest of sincere regards ippy

I told you that. Once you do all the things I said, you'll understand.

[ippy]

I told you that. Once you do all the things I said, you'll understand.

Like I said I've seen your assertions that you apparently are unable to explain, it couldn't be evasion on your part?

Sincere and cheers regards, ippy 

[Sriram]

Like I said I've seen your assertions that you apparently are unable to explain, it couldn't be evasion on your part?

Sincere and cheers regards, ippy

Hi ippy,

No evasion at all. And I am sorry if I sounded somewhat curt in the above posts.

I realize that you are completely insulated from the matters that I am talking about.  Most people in the West know only Christianity and Science and choose between the two.  Secular Spirituality is like a strange new animal that most people struggle to understand.

Spirituality is a science by itself and is huge requiring lot of background study and practice. If someone asked you a question about the how's and why's of evolution you'll probably tell him to go and study the subject.  The same applies to Spirituality. 

Cheers.

Sriram

[Walter]

Hi ippy,

No evasion at all. And I am sorry if I sounded somewhat curt in the above posts.

I realize that you are completely insulated from the matters that I am talking about.  Most people in the West know only Christianity and Science and choose between the two.  Secular Spirituality is like a strange new animal that most people struggle to understand.

Spirituality is a science by itself and is huge requiring lot of background study and practice. If someone asked you a question about the how's and why's of evolution you'll probably tell him to go and study the subject.  The same applies to Spirituality. 

Cheers.

Sriram

Secular Spirituality  ====== oxymoron
Spirituality is a science ======oxymoron

your post is nothing but CONTRADICTION in the most obvious sense of the word 

c'mon Sriram ,you've got to do better than that to stay in the 'race'

[Shaker]

Secular Spirituality  ====== oxymoron
Spirituality is a science ======oxymoron

The second is a doubtful case - I don't see any intrinsic bar on empirical investigation of 'spiritual' ideas (once 'spiritual' has been defined, which it frequently isn't) but the first? I can think of several high-powered philosophers* who would disagree with you. Since spirituality hasn't been defined you seem to be jumping the gun by assuming that it's inextricably tied to supernaturalist religion. It isn't, so Sriram is right at least to this extent.

Probably not much further, mind.

* Andre Comte-Sponville, Ray Billington and the late Robert C. Solomon especially.

[Sriram]

The second is a doubtful case - I don't see any intrinsic bar on empirical investigation of 'spiritual' ideas (once 'spiritual' has been defined, which it frequently isn't) but the first? I can think of several high-powered philosophers* who would disagree with you. Since spirituality hasn't been defined you seem to be jumping the gun by assuming that it's inextricably tied to supernaturalist religion. It isn't, so Sriram is right at least to this extent.

Probably not much further, mind.

* Andre Comte-Sponville, Ray Billington and the late Robert C. Solomon especially.

Oh..oh!!  Shaker being reasonable and all that!!! How nice!