Spirit photography

[Walter]

The second is a doubtful case - I don't see any intrinsic bar on empirical investigation of 'spiritual' ideas (once 'spiritual' has been defined, which it frequently isn't) but the first? I can think of several high-powered philosophers* who would disagree with you. Since spirituality hasn't been defined you seem to be jumping the gun by assuming that it's inextricably tied to supernaturalist religion. It isn't, so Sriram is right at least to this extent.

Probably not much further, mind.

* Andre Comte-Sponville, Ray Billington and the late Robert C. Solomon especially.

actually no, you are wrong . Ive asserted it so it must be true .

high powered philosophers========oxymoron

[ippy]

Hi ippy,

No evasion at all. And I am sorry if I sounded somewhat curt in the above posts.

I realize that you are completely insulated from the matters that I am talking about.  Most people in the West know only Christianity and Science and choose between the two.  Secular Spirituality is like a strange new animal that most people struggle to understand.

Spirituality is a science by itself and is huge requiring lot of background study and practice. If someone asked you a question about the how's and why's of evolution you'll probably tell him to go and study the subject.  The same applies to Spirituality. 

Cheers.

Sriram

Sriram I can only relate your post to something like, I'll send you an empty box, if you spend enough time studying the contents you'll begin to understand and in the end you'll should be able to understand, for me that trumps anything the east has to offer.

Sorry I'm not your sit round in a circle cross legged, chanting omm, type person no thank you very much, I've got much better things to do with my time. 

Regards ippy

[Sriram]

Ok...I knew that...didn't I!!!

[ippy]

Ok...I knew that...didn't I!!!

You're stil not going to back up your words with anything substantial then Sriram? Any one of us is able to assert anything we like, that's easy.

Remember old Duggie's saying: "Isn't it enough to have a beautifull garden without having to think there are faries at the bottom of it"?

Regards ippy

[Walter]

Hi Sriram

You seem like a really nice chap even though you have strange ideas about reality .
Wherever it is you live , are there many others who believe the same as you ?

[Sriram]

Hi ippy and Walter,

You guys really don't seem to have any idea what I am talking about or how much of a way of life these ideas are in India, China, Japan and increasingly in the US, Germany and other countries.  I am truly surprised!  Many Britishers (in particular) seem to be completely ignorant about such fundamental philosophies of large parts of the world!

Not agreeing with it is a different matter....I have no problem with that....but not knowing about it is inexcusable because it means people are rather stubbornly insulating themselves to avoid knowing such things.

In fact I have discussed these matters in some detail many  times over the years on the BBC boards and on here.... and yet many people here (not just you two) keep expressing the same degree of ignorance and surprise every single time even today.   It shows a degree of deliberate avoidance that is typically 'nose in the air' British!      No offence guys but that's the way I feel.

That is a pity because Yoga and Vedanta philosophy (don't ask... 'what's that?') are becoming very popular world over and are actually replacing traditional religious beliefs in many parts.  These are  secular spiritual philosophies that are not incompatible with science and also attempt to explain life itself besides providing people with a basis for self development.

Anyway....thanks  for asking.   

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: If you want to read about such matters and also about the difference between Spirituality and religion, you can click on my internet link above left. There are several articles that could help you to understand these things....provided of course that you want to understand!

If you really want me to explain some basic aspects of these philosophies on these boards....do let me know. I don't mind doing it once more.

Thanks Walter... for your kind words.     You aren't so bad yourself after all! 

[Robbie]

I do appreciate a lot of what you outline sririam.  Not sure if it had anything to do with photography.

[Walter]

sriram
thanks for the reply ill respond properly soon
and what do you mean by ''you aren't so bad yourself after all ''?  you sound surprised!

[ippy]

Hi ippy and Walter,

You guys really don't seem to have any idea what I am talking about or how much of a way of life these ideas are in India, China, Japan and increasingly in the US, Germany and other countries.  I am truly surprised!  Many Britishers (in particular) seem to be completely ignorant about such fundamental philosophies of large parts of the world!

Not agreeing with it is a different matter....I have no problem with that....but not knowing about it is inexcusable because it means people are rather stubbornly insulating themselves to avoid knowing such things.

In fact I have discussed these matters in some detail many  times over the years on the BBC boards and on here.... and yet many people here (not just you two) keep expressing the same degree of ignorance and surprise every single time even today.   It shows a degree of deliberate avoidance that is typically 'nose in the air' British!      No offence guys but that's the way I feel.

That is a pity because Yoga and Vedanta philosophy (don't ask... 'what's that?') are becoming very popular world over and are actually replacing traditional religious beliefs in many parts.  These are  secular spiritual philosophies that are not incompatible with science and also attempt to explain life itself besides providing people with a basis for self development.

Anyway....thanks  for asking.   

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: If you want to read about such matters and also about the difference between Spirituality and religion, you can click on my internet link above left. There are several articles that could help you to understand these things....provided of course that you want to understand!

If you really want me to explain some basic aspects of these philosophies on these boards....do let me know. I don't mind doing it once more.

Thanks Walter... for your kind words.     You aren't so bad yourself after all! 

O K Sriram I've read your pitch and there are similar claims for all sorts of beliefs in all sorts of things including the things you're trying to promote here, I know of these subjects you describe but couldn't see any of the requested evidence that would support these, at present, ideas have any substance to them.

I could easily say, three quarters of the worlds population believe in 'Star Trek', what would be your next question be to that declaration?

Just a footnote, almost any form of exercise is good for almost anyone, give the form of exercise any name you like, why not call one form of exercise 'Yoga'?
 
Regards ippy

[ProfessorDavey]

Just a footnote, almost any form of exercise is good for almost anyone, give the form of exercise any name you like, why not call one form of exercise 'Yoga'?

That's right - I know loads of people who do yoga, I doubt many think of it as a philosophy, let alone a spiritual philosophy. In most cases yoga is exercise, and at most a form of both physical therapy and also a kind of cognitive therapy too (akin to meditation, mindfulness etc). It is perhaps true that many (certainly not all) who do yoga also are interested in environmentalism, perhaps also vegetarian and/or into organic produce. So perhaps there is a wider 'philosophy' if you wish here which is kind of about respect for environment and self. However none of that is 'spiritual', as there is no requirement for a 'spirit' or any 'spiritual element' to think that you want to treat the environment and also your body and mind well.

[Shaker]

That's right - I know loads of people who do yoga, I doubt many think of it as a philosophy, let alone a spiritual philosophy. In most cases yoga is exercise, and at most a form of both physical therapy and also a kind of cognitive therapy too (akin to meditation, mindfulness etc). It is perhaps true that many (certainly not all) who do yoga also are interested in environmentalism, perhaps also vegetarian and/or into organic produce. So perhaps there is a wider 'philosophy' if you wish here which is kind of about respect for environment and self.

Things like yoga, mindfulness and more formal meditation are very widely popular in the West; I should say that the great majority of people see them in therapeutic terms, as self-betterment through exercise (and therefore weight loss), stress reduction and so forth - good things in and of themselves - with little or more likely no thought given to any kind of underlying religious philosophy. Many of us could do with losing a few pounds, and it's a relatively rare person who wouldn't benefit from learning how to relax more deeply and fully. I've meditated for many years and explored tai chi as well so I know whereof I speak.

Every once in a while you see crop up in the news some barmy  vicar who won't let the church hall be used for yoga classes, ironically giving far more credence to Hinduism than anybody tying themselves in knots on a mat. The many people who take up yoga are by definition not threatened by it, whereas those like the aforementioned vicar by definition are.

However none of that is 'spiritual', as there is no requirement for a 'spirit' or any 'spiritual element' to think that you want to treat the environment and also your body and mind well.

Slightly quibble with this insofar as this view of spirituality is predicated on and assumes spirit-as-immaterial-and-supernatural-essence, which it need not. I grant you that it's a semantic issue mainly, but Sam Harris especially has defended his continued use of words such as spirituality by saying that there's currently no other word that quite covers all the bases he intends by it and the record of deliberately and consciously contrived neologisms isn't especially encouraging.

[ippy]

Things like yoga, mindfulness and more formal meditation are very widely popular in the West; I should say that the great majority of people see them in therapeutic terms, as self-betterment through exercise (and therefore weight loss), stress reduction and so forth - good things in and of themselves - with little or more likely no thought given to any kind of underlying religious philosophy. Many of us could do with losing a few pounds, and it's a relatively rare person who wouldn't benefit from learning how to relax more deeply and fully. I've meditated for many years and explored tai chi as well so I know whereof I speak.

Every once in a while you see crop up in the news some barmy  vicar who won't let the church hall be used for yoga classes, ironically giving far more credence to Hinduism than anybody tying themselves in knots on a mat. The many people who take up yoga are by definition not threatened by it, whereas those like the aforementioned vicar by definition are. Slightly quibble with this insofar as this view of spirituality is predicated on and assumes spirit-as-immaterial-and-supernatural-essence, which it need not. I grant you that it's a semantic issue mainly, but Sam Harris especially has defended his continued use of words such as spirituality by saying that there's currently no other word that quite covers all the bases he intends by it and the record of deliberately and consciously contrived neologisms isn't especially encouraging.

Love 'the anyone tying themselves up in knots on a mat',

Regards ippy

[Walter]

SHAKER

very interesting and encouraging with the yoga part , I'm thinking of doing something similar when I recover , loose some kilos and become more supple . When I was younger I studied karate for a few years and became strong supple and as fit as a butchers dog , id love to be like that again.

had to get the dictionary out towards the end though .

[Shaker]

Love 'the anyone tying themselves up in knots on a mat',

Regards ippy

I've tried it and some of those postures are tricky, man 

[Shaker]

SHAKER

very interesting and encouraging with the yoga part , I'm thinking of doing something similar when I recover , loose some kilos and become more supple . When I was younger I studied karate for a few years and became strong supple and as fit as a butchers dog , id love to be like that again.

You might ease yourself in by trying tai chi - low impact (no impact, really), very graceful, nice and relaxing, no knots 

had to get the dictionary out towards the end though .

Sorry Wal. Point taken 

I really do need to deracinate the circumlocutory sesquipedelianism 

[Sriram]

sriram
thanks for the reply ill respond properly soon
and what do you mean by ''you aren't so bad yourself after all ''?  you sound surprised!

Ha..Ha. You do realize that you very often come across as an insensitive and grump old fellow!? But sometimes in your unguarded moments the softer aspect seems to surface (rarely though!).  That what I meant. 

[Sriram]

O K Sriram I've read your pitch and there are similar claims for all sorts of beliefs in all sorts of things including the things you're trying to promote here, I know of these subjects you describe but couldn't see any of the requested evidence that would support these, at present, ideas have any substance to them.

I could easily say, three quarters of the worlds population believe in 'Star Trek', what would be your next question be to that declaration?

Just a footnote, almost any form of exercise is good for almost anyone, give the form of exercise any name you like, why not call one form of exercise 'Yoga'?
 
Regards ippy

Well...ippy, I tried my best but I know its no use. Cheers.

[Walter]

Ha..Ha. You do realize that you very often come across as an insensitive and grump old fellow!? But sometimes in your unguarded moments the softer aspect seems to surface (rarely though!).  That what I meant. 

ok thanks , id better stop with the unguarded moments then 

[Walter]

You might ease yourself in by trying tai chi - low impact (no impact, really), very graceful, nice and relaxing, no knots 
Sorry Wal. Point taken 

I really do need to deracinate the circumlocutory sesquipedelianism 

the last bit?   exactly, it's not big and it's not clever 

[Walter]

see that; why is my reply embedded in the blue box ?? I've followed everyone's instructions

[Walter]

Hi ippy and Walter,

You guys really don't seem to have any idea what I am talking about or how much of a way of life these ideas are in India, China, Japan and increasingly in the US, Germany and other countries.  I am truly surprised!  Many Britishers (in particular) seem to be completely ignorant about such fundamental philosophies of large parts of the world!

Not agreeing with it is a different matter....I have no problem with that....but not knowing about it is inexcusable because it means people are rather stubbornly insulating themselves to avoid knowing such things.

In fact I have discussed these matters in some detail many  times over the years on the BBC boards and on here.... and yet many people here (not just you two) keep expressing the same degree of ignorance and surprise every single time even today.   It shows a degree of deliberate avoidance that is typically 'nose in the air' British!      No offence guys but that's the way I feel.

That is a pity because Yoga and Vedanta philosophy (don't ask... 'what's that?') are becoming very popular world over and are actually replacing traditional religious beliefs in many parts.  These are  secular spiritual philosophies that are not incompatible with science and also attempt to explain life itself besides providing people with a basis for self development.

Anyway....thanks  for asking.   

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: If you want to read about such matters and also about the difference between Spirituality and religion, you can click on my internet link above left. There are several articles that could help you to understand these things....provided of course that you want to understand!

If you really want me to explain some basic aspects of these philosophies on these boards....do let me know. I don't mind doing it once more.

Thanks Walter... for your kind words.     You aren't so bad yourself after all! 

here is my considered response Sriram

I am aware of what you speak but was referring to your local village , town or whatever and your friends.

Also , even if 7 billion people minus one  believe it , it doesn't make it true.. get your head round that my friend .

[ekim]

If you really want me to explain some basic aspects of these philosophies on these boards....do let me know. I don't mind doing it once more.

If you have the inclination, it might pay you to start a new topic as this one is about photography.  It seems from the replies that there is a misconception that yoga is only hatha yoga, whereas there are many 'yogas' e.g. Bhakti yoga, Karma yoga, raja yoga, kriya yoga, or you might like to take the easy route and refer them to tantra yoga and the Kamasutra.

[ippy]

Well...ippy, I tried my best but I know its no use. Cheers.

Sriram, there's no sign of any attempt to substantiate any part of your claims about your version of spirituality or the earlier reference to reincarnation?

I suppose it couldn't be because there is no way you can substantiate any of these full of magical and mystery beliefs of yours, surly the lack of any rational reason like the lack of supporting evidence for these beliefs would make most rational people at least question these rather lacking ideas before taking them up, believing in them, in the first place?

Right Sriram, the supporting evidence for these ideas of yours? Assertions are unacceptable, let's have it, I'm waiting?

I somehow have a strong feeling I'm going to be waiting for a long time.

Regards and dismissive cheers, ippy. 

[Sriram]

If you have the inclination, it might pay you to start a new topic as this one is about photography.  It seems from the replies that there is a misconception that yoga is only hatha yoga, whereas there are many 'yogas' e.g. Bhakti yoga, Karma yoga, raja yoga, kriya yoga, or you might like to take the easy route and refer them to tantra yoga and the Kamasutra.

Thanks ekim. Yes..if I do explain all that stuff, it will be on a separate thread.

But I don't think anyone here is seriously inclined to read and understand lofty philosophical material. That is for serious aspirants.

This forum is a meeting place for some idle chit chat...maybe some little 'intellectual' titter tatter...lot of bible bashing..... Generally time pass. And people are fairly decent, fair and civil. 

And though there are many forums where I could discuss serious spirituality, I like  this forum because it has helped me see diverse view points. I am interested in developing and growing my own personal perspective of the world...and this forum helps.

Cheers.

Sriram

[Sriram]

Sriram, there's no sign of any attempt to substantiate any part of your claims about your version of spirituality or the earlier reference to reincarnation?

I suppose it couldn't be because there is no way you can substantiate any of these full of magical and mystery beliefs of yours, surly the lack of any rational reason like the lack of supporting evidence for these beliefs would make most rational people at least question these rather lacking ideas before taking them up, believing in them, in the first place?

Right the Sriram, the supporting evidence for these ideas of yours? Assertions are unacceptable, let's have it, I'm waiting?

I somehow have a strong feeling I'm going to be waiting for a long time.

Regards and dismissive cheers, ippy.

Hi ippy,

There is nothing to substantiate. Its not something I can take in my hand and show you. These are philosophical matters that depend more on perception than on proof. I can only explain them or tell you what they are....not produce proof or evidence for them. 

So...you're right. I have no intention of substantiating any of the Hindu philosophical ideas ...simply because it cannot be done. I have already said that.

Let us leave it at that.

Thanks and cheers.

Sriram