Author Topic: Smacking to be banned in Scotland  (Read 11772 times)

Nearly Sane

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Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« on: October 19, 2017, 11:05:13 AM »
I know there was a thread on this when the consultation period started but I couldn't  find it in the happorth of time I looked. Anyway good news that the Scottish govt will back this. Hope it goes through unanimously.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41678797
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 11:40:09 AM by Nearly Sane »

Walter

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2017, 11:37:50 AM »
I know there was a thread on this when the consultation period started but I couldn't  find it in the happorth of time I looked. Anyway goof news that the Scottish govt will back this. Hope it goes through unanimously.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41678797
it is good news , as long as you're still allowed to give naughty ones a good clattering in the supermarket .

floo

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2017, 11:45:19 AM »
The thrashings I got as a child, would certainly be considered abusive today. However, a light slap on the hand, when all else fails, should still be permissible, imo.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2017, 11:54:00 AM »
The thrashings I got as a child, would certainly be considered abusive today. However, a light slap on the hand, when all else fails, should still be permissible, imo.
Yes, I know you think being violent to children is acceptable.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2017, 12:00:27 PM »
The thrashings I got as a child, would certainly be considered abusive today. However, a light slap on the hand, when all else fails, should still be permissible, imo.
"Light" as in so light that they don't feel it or light enough as to cause some pain?
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floo

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2017, 12:01:04 PM »
Yes, I know you think being violent to children is acceptable.

I wouldn't consider a slap on the hand, as long as it doesn't leave a mark, as violence.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2017, 12:02:46 PM »
I wouldn't consider a slap on the hand, as long as it doesn't leave a mark, as violence.
Said the supporter of violrnce to children.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2017, 12:03:24 PM »
Child abuse never did me any harm said the child abuser.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

floo

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2017, 12:10:11 PM »
I don't see how on earth a light slap on the hand can be termed child abuse, a thrashing like I used to get definitely was, and I do not condone that at all.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2017, 12:14:20 PM »
The first time my ex hit me, I was 29 years old, 6'5', 14 stones. Perfectly able to defend myself, and after all it was just a firm slap of my cheek. It didn't leave a mark, it wasn't particularly sore. And I felt shocked, demeaned, belittled and I had the benefits of knowing that I could defend myself, of understanding what had just happened but it was deeply unpleasant. Why should someone be allowed to do that to a vulnerable child without the ability to defend itself, not necessarily able to understand what it was for?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:18:56 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2017, 12:15:30 PM »
I don't see how on earth a light slap on the hand can be termed child abuse, a thrashing like I used to get definitely was, and I do not condone that at all.
Just because there can be something more violent doesn't mean that hitting a child isn't violence
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:18:19 PM by Nearly Sane »

Gordon

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2017, 12:56:30 PM »
Excellent news - speaking as a Scottish parent of three children and grandparent of four - all raised in Scotland.

Inflicting pain on children for trivial reasons is nauseating and unnecessary.

floo

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2017, 01:31:44 PM »
Well we have to agree to differ over the idea of a light slap on the hand being considered as violence, in England and Wales it is permissible, and something I would only have used as a last resort. Our children apparently enjoyed their childhood, so the occasional light slap on the hand obviously didn't cause them any distress. Grounding was considered a much more painful exercise!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2017, 01:37:45 PM »
Well we have to agree to differ over the idea of a light slap on the hand being considered as violence, in England and Wales it is permissible, and something I would only have used as a last resort. Our children apparently enjoyed their childhood, so the occasional light slap on the hand obviously didn't cause them any distress. Grounding was considered a much more painful exercise!
I've enjoyed my life overall but when my ex hit me, it wasn't very painful but it was very distressing and unpleasant. So your argument there doesn't work.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2017, 02:08:29 PM »
I've enjoyed my life overall but when my ex hit me, it wasn't very painful but it was very distressing and unpleasant. So your argument there doesn't work.

Agreed here, although what did physically hurt was when a missile such as a mobile telephone struck me. Fists I could defend myself against.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2017, 02:19:34 PM »
Well we have to agree to differ over the idea of a light slap on the hand being considered as violence, in England and Wales it is permissible, and something I would only have used as a last resort. Our children apparently enjoyed their childhood, so the occasional light slap on the hand obviously didn't cause them any distress.
What did it do then? Was it painful  enough to make them notice?
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2017, 02:20:55 PM »
The first time my ex hit me, I was 29 years old, 6'5', 14 stones. Perfectly able to defend myself, and after all it was just a firm slap of my cheek. It didn't leave a mark, it wasn't particularly sore. And I felt shocked, demeaned, belittled and I had the benefits of knowing that I could defend myself, of understanding what had just happened but it was deeply unpleasant. Why should someone be allowed to do that to a vulnerable child without the ability to defend itself, not necessarily able to understand what it was for?
I got slapped and caned as a child - I don't remember exactly how I felt about it - a bit shocked, scared, outraged I think - but I do remember most of the time what I did that got me caned and tried to avoid doing it again. I accepted that at the age I was at the time, my parents got to make the decisions (and as an aside it was really useful when I started kick-boxing to have already experienced being hit as a child and built up a slight tolerance to the shock and pain, even if it was a far less shock and pain than you experience in boxing).

Forgetting the cultural morality issue for a moment, isn't the point of slapping a child to make them do what you want quickly when you don't have time to reason with them because of an urgent situation or because you have tried reasoning with them and they won't listen and you don't have time to reason with them again or because they can't be reasoned with because their brains are undeveloped, their impulses uncontrolled etc.

If a child's brain is developed enough to  understand that they dislike a slap, it's one way of dissuading them from repeating an action if the consequence is a slap. If the child's brain is not developed enough to equate the slap with the action , then slapping them doesn't work.

On the other hand they might not be dissuaded despite the slap because either you're not allowed to hit them harder or you can't bring yourself to hit them hard enough for it hurt enough to dissuade them. In which case there is no point slapping them and the only way of dealing with a situation is to pick them up and physically remove them from the situation or to stay put but physically restrain them in some way.

That's not the situation with an adult. Or more to the point, an adult with poor impulse control who has the mentality capacity to understand consequences can be sanctioned by other means - you can exclude them from your life temporarily by walking away and leaving them to it, exclude them from your life permanently, call the police, sanction them with a caution, fines and prison. None of which you can do with a young child whom you have to legally supervise.

From a morality perspective, of course governments have the right to change the definition of what is morally acceptable by outlawing slapping. IMO some of the mistakes parents make is not spending enough time talking and having fun interacting with their kids, not providing enough structure and routine and not sanctioning their kids consistently enough in non-physical ways, even if it upsets them, in order to teach them what is acceptable behaviour and to teach them to cope with not getting their own way.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2017, 02:27:31 PM »
I don't believe in hitting people, the vulnerable all the more so.

I don't see the point on an adult with poor impulse control is relevant here. You seem to be placing them as the 'hitter' in the place of the person being hit, but I may be wrong as it didn't seem clear.


As to what consists of good parenting as a whole, maybe another thread but here it feels like a derail.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 02:36:07 PM by Nearly Sane »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2017, 03:02:07 PM »
I don't believe in hitting people, the vulnerable all the more so.

I don't see the point on an adult with poor impulse control is relevant here. You seem to be placing them as the 'hitter' in the place of the person being hit, but I may be wrong as it didn't seem clear.


As to what consists of good parenting as a whole, maybe another thread but here it feels like a derail.
I meant the adult with poor impulse control is just someone who is behaving in a way you don't like - could be shouting and causing a scene, grabbing stuff, throwing stuff on the floor, running away and into the road, taking something of yours or something dangerous to them that they have been told not to touch.

The kind of impulsive things a young child does.

I don't think hitting children is a good idea but it can be handy if it works and isn't excessive. I don't believe in hitting people I can walk away from whereby I can leave them to it.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2017, 03:12:56 PM »
I meant the adult with poor impulse control is just someone who is behaving in a way you don't like - could be shouting and causing a scene, grabbing stuff, throwing stuff on the floor, running away and into the road, taking something of yours or something dangerous to them that they have been told not to touch.

The kind of impulsive things a young child does.

I don't think hitting children is a good idea but it can be handy if it works and isn't excessive. I don't believe in hitting people I can walk away from whereby I can leave them to it.
still don't get the adult point. Are you suggesting that we hit people in mental asylums?


How do you know if it works to hit a child? What if the child does feel humiliated and betrayed as I did when my ex hit me, despite being perfectly capable of defending myself?

Robbie

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2017, 03:17:06 PM »
Very glad Scotland has banned smacking.  What has surprised me on this thread is to learn that it isn't banned in England and Wales, for some reason I thought it was. Well it should be.  I was never smacked, my parents are gentle people, slow to anger & I never smacked my kids, it wouldn't have occurred to me. It's unnecessary.  You often hear people say it never did them any harm but I don't believe that.
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Walter

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2017, 03:23:38 PM »
still don't get the adult point. Are you suggesting that we hit people in mental asylums?


How do you know if it works to hit a child? What if the child does feel humiliated and betrayed as I did when my ex hit me, despite being perfectly capable of defending myself?
sounds like you need to grow a pair ,pal.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2017, 03:27:15 PM »
still don't get the adult point. Are you suggesting that we hit people in mental asylums?
No because they don't have the mental capacity to understand - that's why I said if a child did not have the mental capacity to link getting hit with the behaviour, and more importantly even if they understood and still refused to comply despite being hit, then there is no point hitting them as you are just taking out your frustrations on them rather than it working to correct an unwanted behaviour.


Quote
How do you know if it works to hit a child? What if the child does feel humiliated and betrayed as I did when my ex hit me, despite being perfectly capable of defending myself?
I don't know for every child - I can only talk from personal experience.

I remember being 6 or 7 and being obsessed with digital watches - they were new and fascinating - and I kept trying to play with a brand new man's digital watch that my mother kept in a drawer - my parents had won it in a raffle but they had made the mistake of writing my name on the raffle ticket, so I considered it mine regardless of anything my mother said. I could not control my impulse to sneak into my parents' room, open the drawer and play with the watch, no matter what was said to me. Once I got caned for it, i decided the watch wasn't worth the pain so I never touched it again. I probably felt humiliated, maybe even betrayed but I figured my parents had a right to enforce their rules if I refused to listen. I don't remember the pain, humiliation or feelings of betrayal lasting more than a few hours tops.

There is other stuff my parents did or didn't do that bothers me a bit to this day, though I am philosophical about it,  but I don't think badly of any of the physical chastisements.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2017, 03:29:51 PM »
Very glad Scotland has banned smacking.  What has surprised me on this thread is to learn that it isn't banned in England and Wales, for some reason I thought it was. Well it should be.  I was never smacked, my parents are gentle people, slow to anger & I never smacked my kids, it wouldn't have occurred to me. It's unnecessary.  You often hear people say it never did them any harm but I don't believe that.
It's hard to define harm.

I don't think I want to be a gentle person or be parented by a gentle person. Just personal preference I guess.

My kids and I rough each other up - not in anger - but it can be fun and I let them hit me really hard - dead legs, punches in the stomach or arm or back but not the face, as it's good conditioning for boxing.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 03:32:26 PM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Smacking to be banned in Scotland
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2017, 03:35:11 PM »
No because they don't have the mental capacity to understand - that's why I said if a child did not have the mental capacity to link getting hit with the behaviour, and more importantly even if they understood and still refused to comply despite being hit, then there is no point hitting them as you are just taking out your frustrations on them rather than it working to correct an unwanted behaviour.

I don't know for every child - I can only talk from personal experience.

I remember being 6 or 7 and being obsessed with digital watches - they were new and fascinating - and I kept trying to play with a brand new man's digital watch that my mother kept in a drawer - my parents had won it in a raffle but they had made the mistake of writing my name on the raffle ticket, so I considered it mine regardless of anything my mother said. I could not control my impulse to sneak into my parents' room, open the drawer and play with the watch, no matter what was said to me. Once I got caned for it, i decided the watch wasn't worth the pain so I never touched it again. I probably felt humiliated, maybe even betrayed but I figured my parents had a right to enforce their rules if I refused to listen. I don't remember the pain, humiliation or feelings of betrayal lasting more than a few hours tops.

There is other stuff my parents did or didn't do that bothers me a bit to this day, though I am philosophical about it,  but I don't think badly of any of the physical chastisements.

The problem here is that is a post hoc analysis of whether it caused harm in a particular case. It's useless for deciding what laws should do, and given that we stop adults hitting each other it seems way more important that we stop adults hitting children. The 'it nevety did me any harm' is both a subjective opinion that may well be wrong and not a great model for public policy.