Smacking to be banned in Scotland

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, people discover that violence works independently of having experienced it but hey, we are back into falling short territory

No, we are having a discussion about banning smacking.

[Walter]

OK OK OK !

No violence, no smacking, kids!

Just will someone please tell me where non-violence. a lack of smacking, has got us?

Kids in the streets who, if you are in their way as they walk along will shove you into the road and laugh at you.

Report it to the police and you are as like as not to get a right seeing to the next time the kids see you.

Kids these days have absolutely nothing to worry about in the way of paying for bad, even atrocious behavior; discipline is a word, when related to under 18's, has disappeared from the vocabulary.

Hell, I haven't got an answer but the way things are now someone somewhere needs to find a way of discilpling under 18's and I, for one don't give a fuck what it is as long as it works 'cos whatever it is we have now sure as Hell doesn't.

you have certainly got some interesting ideas there and I tend to agree with you .
I have observed kids and parents while being out and about where they are allowed to do what ever they want while the parents just ignore them .
As an example I happened to be on a railway platform out in  the sticks and the only way to communicate with the train company was by use of a metal box on a wall and you could press a button for help and a voice would answer.
Three kids were running about and pressing the button in turn and the voice kept answering . The parents did nothing to stop them , so I did . in not a very pleasant tone . They stopped . The parents then took notice and also responded as if I had chastised them too.
I would never have allowed my kids to behave like that so a smack was never required .

[Owlswing]

you have certainly got some interesting ideas there and I tend to agree with you .
I have observed kids and parents while being out and about where they are allowed to do what ever they want while the parents just ignore them .
As an example I happened to be on a railway platform out in  the sticks and the only way to communicate with the train company was by use of a metal box on a wall and you could press a button for help and a voice would answer.
Three kids were running about and pressing the button in turn and the voice kept answering . The parents did nothing to stop them , so I did . in not a very pleasant tone . They stopped . The parents then took notice and also responded as if I had chastised them too.
I would never have allowed my kids to behave like that so a smack was never required .

There is now no way to discipline a child, legal way, that is.

A talking to is "verbal abuse".

A slap is "assault".

Sending them to their room or confining them to the house is "illegal imprisonment".

These definitions were provided by a Child Protection Unit officer at a police and Social Services meeting on 'Crime and Public Safety on the streets!

[Rhiannon]

It’s seird but I’ve never felt the need to discipline a child through punishment. It’s about teaching understanding and putting things right. So a ‘talking to’ is actually explaining what is wrong, listening, agreeing or otherwise and deciding what to do next.

[Walter]

It’s seird but I’ve never felt the need to discipline a child through punishment. It’s about teaching understanding and putting things right. So a ‘talking to’ is actually explaining what is wrong, listening, agreeing or otherwise and deciding what to do next.

yes, in an ideal world but not all kids are born with equal intelligence levels .

[Walter]

There is now no way to discipline a child, legal way, that is.

A talking to is "verbal abuse".

A slap is "assault".

Sending them to their room or confining them to the house is "illegal imprisonment".

These definitions were provided by a Child Protection Unit officer at a police and Social Services meeting on 'Crime and Public Safety on the streets!

I don't doubt your comments but how do you know this , were you involved?

[Shaker]

yes, in an ideal world but not all kids are born with equal intelligence levels .

Same goes for some parents though.

[Walter]

Same goes for some parents though.

and there you have it my friend , we are saturated in  cannon fodder.

[Rhiannon]

yes, in an ideal world but not all kids are born with equal intelligence levels .

It’s not necessarily about intelligence but warmth and empathy, and demonstrating the right way to do things - kids learn from what we do far more than from what we say. If parents lack empathy, can’t demonstrate right from wrong and/or neglect the child, no ‘discipline’ in any form is going to make a great deal of difference.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Everyone lives in a world where violence is a possibility. I have no understanding what relevance that has to hitting  children.

I think if a child can't cope with a trivial slap that doesn't leave a mark, they are not going to be much use to anyone if they have to deal with real violence. I think one of the jobs of a parent is to prepare their children for the real world, not cocoon them, give them a false sense of reality and leave them unprepared.

I think the reality is that you could get threatened or actually hit and being frozen with shock or feeling traumatised if that happens isn't helpful to anyone.

[Nearly Sane]

I think if a child can't cope with a trivial slap that doesn't leave a mark, they are not going to be much use to anyone if they have to deal with real violence. I think one of the jobs of a parent is to prepare their children for the real world, not cocoon them, give them a false sense of reality and leave them unprepared.

I think the reality is that you could get threatened or actually hit and being frozen with shock or feeling traumatised if that happens isn't helpful to anyone.

So in order to avoid someone being traumatised by being hit, you hit them. Mmm....

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I am wondering that too.
Regarding being traumatised, I doubt anyone goes through life without some trauma even if they don't call it
that.

Being deliberately hit, even if it doesn't hurt much, is traumatic, more so than if you fall over and sprain your ankle.  It's shocking and the idea that a big person is allowed do that to a little one is particularly so.

I don't think it is traumatic or if we are describing it as traumatic, then clearly trauma means something trivial. I think the only trauma you feel is the shock at the realisation that someone is stopping you from doing what you want because you don't like the consequences when you do it.

When you fall over there is blood or marked skin - not the same as being hit. But yes, there isn't the frustration that someone else is physically stopping you from doing what you want to do. When I physically restrained my daughter from getting up, age 2, she cried loudly in sheer frustration. That worked very well as a punishment, if I had time to physically restrain her, but it did take 9 months of naughty step or physical restraint for the message to sink into her head that if I threatened it, I would follow through.

When I slapped her hand age 2 something, there was some tears but when I told her if she did it again she would get another slap she held her other hand up defiantly for a slap. I slapped it and she put it behind her back and held her first hand up for a slap, I slapped that hand, she put it behind her back and held her other hand up for a slap. I slapped it but as I had no intention of hitting her harder or indefinitely I then tried something else as a punishment, but I remember being impressed with her defiance - that was the first time I had slapped her.

But despite this show of defiance, when threatened with a slap on another occasion, she complied - so clearly she didn't like it and decided whatever she wanted to do wasn't worth getting a slap for. So it works.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

So in order to avoid someone being traumatised by being hit, you hit them. Mmm....

Yes - it certainly works in boxing.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes - it certainly works in boxing.

This logic is on a par with 'In order to save the village, we had to destroy it'

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Never got why anyone thinks that making your own child afraid of what you will do is remotely sensible or desirable.

Fear works. It's trivial fear.

My kids are more afraid of spiders and other stuff than they are of me. They've told me that. My daughter refused to go into the bathroom because of a tiny spider high up on the wall and I shouted at her and ordered her to go in and stop being so silly as she was running late for school, and when she refused I said who are you more afraid of, me or the spider, and she said the spider. So I had to go in and get rid of it before she would go have a shower.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

This logic is on a par with 'In order to save the village, we had to destroy it'

If you think that a trivial slap is the same as destroying a village, ok. Can't see it myself.

Also - in boxing you get hit while training so that you can cope with getting hit. 

[Nearly Sane]

If you think that a trivial slap is the same as destroying a village, ok. Can't see it myself.

Also - in boxing you get hit while training so that you can cope with getting hit. 

Post didn't say but I suppose you like your little amusements

[Rhiannon]

Fear works. It's trivial fear.

My kids are more afraid of spiders and other stuff than they are of me. They've told me that. My daughter refused to go into the bathroom because of a tiny spider high up on the wall and I shouted at her and ordered her to go in and stop being so silly as she was running late for school, and when she refused I said who are you more afraid of, me or the spider, and she said the spider. So I had to go in and get rid of it before she would go have a shower.

You aren’t understanding the difference between single point and complex trauma. Repeated small scale trauma has as big an impact as a large traumatic event, maybe more. The effects of repeat trauma very often don’t manifest until later in life when the person feels ‘safe’ enough to feel what they feel.

[Rhiannon]

I think if a child can't cope with a trivial slap that doesn't leave a mark, they are not going to be much use to anyone if they have to deal with real violence. I think one of the jobs of a parent is to prepare their children for the real world, not cocoon them, give them a false sense of reality and leave them unprepared.

I think the reality is that you could get threatened or actually hit and being frozen with shock or feeling traumatised if that happens isn't helpful to anyone.

No, the reality is that kids are supposed to think that there are two people in the world that they can trust, and trust not to hurt, shame or make them afraid - their parents. Your use of violence opens them up to choosing abusive relationships in future because they’ve been taught that ‘trivial’ fear and violence are a part of close relationships.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

No, the reality is that kids are supposed to think that there are two people in the world that they can trust, and trust not to hurt, shame or make them afraid - their parents. Your use of violence opens them up to choosing abusive relationships in future because they’ve been taught that ‘trivial’ fear and violence are a part of close relationships.

I disagree that that should be what children are supposed to think. I prefer it if they use their childhood to actively figure out if it they love me, what love and trust means, and if it works for them to have a relationship with me rather than for them to have unrealistic assumptions about personal relationships.

ETA: I'm not sure what you mean by using violence opens them up to abusive relationships. Once children are old enough to reason with and there is less requirement for immediate action as they can link the delayed punishment of being grounded or having something taken away to their earlier action or behaviour, slapping becomes a pointless thing to do. Other consequences are more effective but still not time-consuming to implement. Plus I agree that the older you get the more autonomous you feel from your parents, therefore the more humiliated you feel by being physically punished especially as it doesn't particularly hurt - so I think slapping an older child - anyone age 7 or over - is not effective.

An adult is not responsible for another adult and is not expected to control the other adult - so they can walk away from the relationship rather than slap another adult. I would call the police if my husband ever slapped me and I would expect him to call the police if I ever slapped him. I don't equate us being hit as children by our respective parents with us having the right to hit each other in an adult relationship, when we have the option of walking away if the other person behaves in a way that makes life unpleasant. 

I am also less interested in my children feeling hurt, shamed or afraid of a trivial slap and more interested in them knowing that I expect them to co-operate or there will be consequences. If the slap does not work as a consequence then I have no interest in using it.

My children were aware they could always take their chances with social services and the care system if they felt they could not cope with the trauma of consequences at home.

I'm curious to know how this smacking ban would be enforced - if I went to prison for a trivial slap, which is fine with both me and my husband, is the public policy logic that the children would be less traumatised by being brought up in care and not going to a private school while we are in prison rather than living at home and going to a private school and receiving a trivial slap?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You aren’t understanding the difference between single point and complex trauma. Repeated small scale trauma has as big an impact as a large traumatic event, maybe more. The effects of repeat trauma very often don’t manifest until later in life when the person feels ‘safe’ enough to feel what they feel.

I think you feel trauma based on your perspective - there aren't objective feelings that exist separate from your conscious or sub-conscious thoughts about an incident or incidents. I didn't feel trauma thinking about my childhood because I was aware that my parents cared about me, were generally fair-minded and nice though there were many times they could not see it my way, but then again I wasn't expecting them to make life perfect for me - I accepted bumps and friction as part of the deal that goes with the love and self-sacrifice and having to live in a house with people who had a different perspective from me and stressful lives.

Regarding possible future trauma, if I have to choose between gaining co-operation or obedience now and worrying about their feelings as adults, I choose co-operation and obedience now.

My view is that if they can't cope with the trauma of remembering trivial slaps as children once they feel safe enough to think about it as adults, they will have to do whatever they need to in order to help themselves as adults so they feel better.

[Rhiannon]

I think you feel trauma based on your perspective - there aren't objective feelings that exist separate from your conscious or sub-conscious thoughts about an incident or incidents. I didn't feel trauma thinking about my childhood because I was aware that my parents cared about me, were generally fair-minded and nice though there were many times they could not see it my way, but then again I wasn't expecting them to make life perfect for me - I accepted bumps and friction as part of the deal that goes with the love and self-sacrifice and having to live in a house with people who had a different perspective from me and stressful lives.

Regarding possible future trauma, if I have to choose between gaining co-operation or obedience now and worrying about their feelings as adults, I choose co-operation and obedience now.

My view is that if they can't cope with the trauma of remembering trivial slaps as children once they feel safe enough to think about it as adults, they will have to do whatever they need to in order to help themselves as adults so they feel better.

You can justify your behaviour by justifying your own parents' but that just normalises abuse, however 'trivial' you believe it to be.

[Nearly Sane]

You can justify your behaviour by justifying your own parents' but that just normalises abuse, however 'trivial' you believe it to be.

My mind turns to Larkin

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You can justify your behaviour by justifying your own parents' but that just normalises abuse, however 'trivial' you believe it to be.

I am justifying nothing more than it is what it is - if my kids don't want to waste their time feeling traumatised, they have the option of viewing their experiences from a different perspective, consequently not feeling traumatised and then spending their time doing something that is more appealing to them than feeling traumatised.

[Nearly Sane]

So if people are traumatised, they choose to feel that way and it's their fault.