Author Topic: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?  (Read 20333 times)

Gordon

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2017, 09:51:10 AM »

Yes...I am in fact saying that Atheism does not have a Big Picture view of the world.  It merely asserts that it does not believe in anything that cannot be explained by natural law.  That is its limitation as also perhaps that of science itself.  Any philosophy that ties itself with science is limited by its scope.

It doesn't, and it seems that you are equating atheism with philosophical naturalism.

It simply means that I (a common or garden atheist) don't currently hold any beliefs about gods (or supernatural agents in general).

Walter

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2017, 10:01:05 AM »
Me too! And thank you, Walter, for the laugh on a grey morning.
you're welcome ........... its proper backendish now though eh Susan!!!!!

SusanDoris

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2017, 10:05:52 AM »
you're welcome ........... its proper backendish now though eh Susan!!!!!
Had to google a definition for that one!

It's not too bad, really, because theres very little wind and it's quite mild. No tap this morning, so I'll walk somewhere.
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Walter

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2017, 10:25:49 AM »
Had to google a definition for that one!

It's not too bad, really, because theres very little wind and it's quite mild. No tap this morning, so I'll walk somewhere.
tap?   as in dancing ?

Stranger

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2017, 01:02:22 PM »
Yes...I am in fact saying that Atheism does not have a Big Picture view of the world.  It merely asserts that it does not believe in anything that cannot be explained by natural law.

Wow. Just wandered back to see how things are going here, only to stumble upon this staggering example of complete ignorance with a large side dish of utter nonsense.

No, atheism doesn't say anything at all about "natural law" or what can or can't be explained by it. Atheism is not believing in any gods (how many times has that been said here and how many more times does it need to be said before the hard of thinking get it into what passes for their minds?)

There is no logical contradiction between atheism and a belief in (for example) magic, an afterlife, ghosts, or even homeopathy.

As for "not believe in anything that cannot be explained by natural law" - it doesn't even make sense. We don't know what can and cannot be explained by 'natural law' because we don't have a complete theory of everything - and even if we did, we couldn't be sure that it was complete. You can only make a coherent belief system from the statement if you insert 'known' into it: "not believe in anything that cannot be explained by known natural law" but then it would be a stupid position to adopt because we know that there are physical situations that can't be so explained.
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SusanDoris

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2017, 01:12:55 PM »
 Yes, I thought everyone knew I tap dance weekly. There's a video which my daughter-in-law very kindly made for me because I thought it would be a great shame if I died without my sons having seen me doing my favourite hobby, for which I keep fit!Actually, I run the class...  The video is the Intermediate warm-up, but of course we do the Advanced grade syllabus too.
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Shaker

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2017, 01:21:48 PM »

Yes...I am in fact saying that Atheism does not have a Big Picture view of the world.
Does it need one, and why?

Welcome back to SkoS by the way. Stick around!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 01:29:49 PM by Shaker »
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Sriram

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2017, 01:38:01 PM »
It doesn't, and it seems that you are equating atheism with philosophical naturalism.

It simply means that I (a common or garden atheist) don't currently hold any beliefs about gods (or supernatural agents in general).

Well...I am probably talking about Philosophical Naturalism.

But many atheists do have a problem not just with the idea of God but even with spirits and afterlife etc.  I know many atheists who do not accept anything that is not explained by natural law (science).  So the difference between the two is rather thin.

Gordon

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2017, 02:14:10 PM »
Well...I am probably talking about Philosophical Naturalism.

But many atheists do have a problem not just with the idea of God but even with spirits and afterlife etc.

I'd imagine they do, which is why they are atheists.

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I know many atheists who do not accept anything that is not explained by natural law (science).

Then they subscribe to philosophical naturalism, foolishly in my opinion: but I've yet to come across any who state they adopt a PN stance.
 
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So the difference between the two is rather thin.

Atheism doesn't entail PN - they are very different things.

Sriram

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2017, 02:22:47 PM »
I'd imagine they do, which is why they are atheists.

Then they subscribe to philosophical naturalism, foolishly in my opinion: but I've yet to come across any who state they adopt a PN stance.
 
Atheism doesn't entail PN - they are very different things.


Well...Ok.  I would really like to know sometime why Atheism does not entail PN.....and how they are different.

Meanwhile...how many people here would claim to be atheists (don't believe in a God) but nevertheless  believe in soul/spirit, after-life, ghosts, reincarnation or heaven-hell, karma whatever....even though none of these are proved or fit into Natural Law as we know it?!

Is there anyone at all.... and will he/she have the guts to admit to that on here, I wonder!? 

Gordon

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2017, 02:34:50 PM »

Well...Ok.  I would really like to know sometime why Atheism does not entail PN.....and how they are different.

All atheism means is that I don't have beliefs about supernatural agents, and this doesn't entail a belief that there are no supernatural agents - just that there are no good reasons to think there are. Nor does it entail a commitment to PN.

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Meanwhile...how many people here would claim to be atheists (don't believe in a God) but nevertheless  believe in soul/spirit, after-life, ghosts, reincarnation or heaven-hell, karma whatever....even though none of these are proved or fit into Natural Law as we know it?!

I doubt there are any, since all these are claims involving supernatural agents (be it gods or ghosts). 

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Is there anyone at all.... and will he/she have the guts to admit to that on here, I wonder!?

I suspect you are misunderstanding atheism, Sriram, and I've yet to come across an atheist who believed in ghosts since 'ghost-believing' and 'atheist' seem to me to be mutually exclusive.

Aruntraveller

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2017, 02:48:57 PM »
I believe Floo is an atheist who also believes in ghosts - although this is from awhile ago so I may be incorrect due to fading memory.
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Enki

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2017, 03:09:30 PM »
Hi Sriram,

A response to your Message 16:


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IMO many of the atheists (New and Old...what's the difference?) are not just repetitive bores but they also lack vision and insight.  Intelligent perhaps but no wisdom. Sorry guys...no offence... :D

And no offence taken, just complete disagreement.

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Britain in particular, being one of the pioneers in Science and modern thinking...seems to have gotten stuck in its own success and glory. Science is the new 'religion'.

For me science isn't a religion in any way. It is simply a method for arriving at better explanations for the things that are conducive to its applications. I would argue that it continually seeks to improve on those successes and its approach is one of critical judgement, inquisitiveness and a willingness to challenge and change  if evidence demands.

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Britishers seem to be resting on their laurels and wallowing in their atheism as though it is some sort of a path breaking new find that no one has thought of before.

You also seem to relate atheism to science here, which seems to me to be a very suspect approach. Also, no one that I know thinks that an atheistic point of view is anything new at all, so this idea that it is some sort of new path falls upon deaf ears as far as I am concerned.

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This is a pity because atheism is as old as the hills
 

Of course it is. Why there is even a tradition of atheism going back at least 2000 years in India. Do you really think that atheists think that they have discovered something new? Sounds like some sort of a straw man to me.


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but lacks any true insight or comprehensive perspective.  It lacks integration and a big picture view.

On the contrary, I think many insights can be gleaned from atheism, and as for comprehensiveness, my feeling is that most religions are not particularly comprehensive at all. They become little more than ideologies, spouting their various 'truths' whilst denying the 'truths' of others.

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Most recent atheists are looking out of a window that someone like Dawkins or Harris have shown them and believe that the little window gives them access to all the world, beyond which there cannot possibly be anything else.

Certainly not my position. I was an atheist long before Dawkins etc. came along, and I have never held the position  that there couldn't possibly be anything else. I'm not sure exactly who you are speaking to here. Perhaps, yourself?

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I guess it will change in the coming decades.

You mean you hope that it will change in the coming decades. Present trends seem to suggest that you could well be wrong. most people in the UK have become apathetic about religion, confining it to a position of steadily deceasing importance.


I suspect you don't really understand what atheism entails at all, simply prefering to try to pigeonhole people into your selfmade boxes. You often talk about your approach to the spiritual, and are very ready to condemn those who disagree with you, dismissing them as those who haven't yet understood the important messages that you are trying to convey. Perhaps if you did try, yourself, to understand what other people are saying, even if you disagree with them, then you may find that your big picture is more comprehensive and integrated.
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floo

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2017, 03:12:37 PM »
I believe Floo is an atheist who also believes in ghosts - although this is from awhile ago so I may be incorrect due to fading memory.

I am an agnostic, who thinks it highly improbable a god or afterlife exists, however I could be wrong, I just hope I am not.

As I have stated many times with regard to the weird experiences I have had in my childhood home, and at our previous property, I am of the opinion there is a natural explanation for the 'supernatural', which science will one day come up with, even if it can't at present.

Nearly Sane

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2017, 03:17:12 PM »
I am an agnostic, who thinks it highly improbable a god or afterlife exists, however I could be wrong, I just hope I am not.

As I have stated many times with regard to the weird experiences I have had in my childhood home, and at our previous property, I am of the opinion there is a natural explanation for the 'supernatural', which science will one day come up with, even if it can't at present.

And nearly every atheist I know is also agnostic.  They aren't exclusionary claims. One talks about belief the other about knowledge. If the answer to the question 'Do you have belief in god(s)?' is No - you are an atheist.

floo

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2017, 03:31:51 PM »
And nearly every atheist I know is also agnostic.  They aren't exclusionary claims. One talks about belief the other about knowledge. If the answer to the question 'Do you have belief in god(s)?' is No - you are an atheist.

I don't think any gods exist, but I admit to the possibility I could be wrong as I have no verifiable evidence to prove without a shadow of doubt I am right.

Nearly Sane

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2017, 03:35:14 PM »
I don't think any gods exist, but I admit to the possibility I could be wrong as I have no verifiable evidence to prove without a shadow of doubt I am right.
And again - agnostic and atheist are not exclusive positions. If you answer  'Do you have belief in god(s)?' No - you are an atheist. You can also be an agnostic at the same time.

floo

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2017, 03:43:26 PM »
And again - agnostic and atheist are not exclusive positions. If you answer  'Do you have belief in god(s)?' No - you are an atheist. You can also be an agnostic at the same time.

I bow to your superior knowledge!

BeRational

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2017, 03:46:11 PM »
I bow to your superior knowledge!

I think you were thinking that agnostic is some half way house between theist and atheist.

It's a common mistake, do not worry.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2017, 03:50:39 PM »
I bow to your superior knowledge!
And now you know that you are an atheist. Glad to have helped.

floo

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2017, 03:52:36 PM »
And now you know that you are an atheist. Glad to have helped.

 ;D

Walter

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2017, 04:56:53 PM »
I am an agnostic, who thinks it highly improbable a god or afterlife exists, however I could be wrong, I just hope I am not.

As I have stated many times with regard to the weird experiences I have had in my childhood home, and at our previous property, I am of the opinion there is a natural explanation for the 'supernatural', which science will one day come up with, even if it can't at present.
strange how it follows you about , don't you think.?

jeremyp

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2017, 08:29:58 PM »

Yes...I am in fact saying that Atheism does not have a Big Picture view of the world.  It merely asserts that it does not believe in anything that cannot be explained by natural law. 
If that's not a big picture, what is?

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That is its limitation as also perhaps that of science itself.  Any philosophy that ties itself with science is limited by its scope.

Whereas the limitations of religion are that nobody has any idea how to show that any of its ideas are right or wrong.

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jeremyp

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2017, 08:34:02 PM »
either my mind has not fully woken up yet  or you are talking bollocks , not sure which yet?
Fallacy of the excluded middle. Both could be true.

I'm almost certain, btw that all of the people on this thread claiming New Atheism has failed are talking bollocks. For one thing, I doubt if any of them could find any person who describes themselves as New Atheist. The whole concept is a colossal straw man.
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jeremyp

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Re: How Did New Atheism Fail So Miserably?
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2017, 08:41:02 PM »
Well...I am probably talking about Philosophical Naturalism.

But many atheists do have a problem not just with the idea of God but even with spirits and afterlife etc.  I know many atheists who do not accept anything that is not explained by natural law (science).  So the difference between the two is rather thin.
Correlation is not causation. Being an atheist does not make you less susceptible to other mumbo jumbo, rather being atheist is just one consequence of a sceptical World view that leads you to reject leprechauns, fairies, flying saucers and magic.
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