THE 11 plus exam.....

[Walter]

Unable to sleep at the moment and with unusual thoughts coming into my head I began to wonder about the 11 plus exam

I can't for the life of me remember ever taking the exam and wondered if it was offered to all kids of my age back in 1968. I had a quick look on line but couldn't find a definitive answer so thought I'd ask you good people on the board for some help in resolving my query

I've just 'taken' a test from 1968 as posted by the Telegraph , it looks daunting and I think many modern school kids would struggle with it .

Hope you can help , thanks

Walter .   

[Humph Warden Bennett]

As far as I remember all kids took this exam.

[Harrowby Hall]

I've just 'taken' a test from 1968 as posted by the Telegraph , it looks daunting and I think many modern school kids would struggle with it .
Walter .

It was intended to be daunting, Walter, we didn't want riff-raff blocking up our grammar schools, did we?

The 11-Plus was a mechanistic three part (in my case) examination which had no purpose other than identifying the top performing (say) 10% of the cohort. It was not criterion-based, it did not look for specific behaviour, it was norm-based - the top 10% performers, whatever their specific marks, were selected. Because girls of the same age are generally more mature physically and intellectually than boys there were frequent occasions when higher performing girls were denied grammar school places in favour of lower performing boys.

Because of its mechanistic nature, it was an examination that children could be trained ... oops ... prepared for. I well recall the numerous ... err ... preparation sessions I suffered underwent. A whole day was set aside for the test itself and the rest of the school had a holiday. I think you would have remembered it.

As an aside, and I stand to be corrected, the PISA assessment, which apparently allows countries to compare their secondary education systems has much in common with the old 11-Plus: it is mechanistic, trainable and rewards performance rather than creativity.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Because girls of the same age are generally more mature physically and intellectually than boys there were frequent occasions when higher performing girls were denied grammar school places in favour of lower performing boys.

It was not the kids fault if the local authorities did not build enough girls grammar schools. There were always co-eds. And there were Technical Highs, if you want to beat the drum about females being denied places then the logical step would be to bemoan that girls were not welcomed in the latter.

[Walter]

It was intended to be daunting, Walter, we didn't want riff-raff blocking up our grammar schools, did we?

The 11-Plus was a mechanistic three part (in my case) examination which had no purpose other than identifying the top performing (say) 10% of the cohort. It was not criterion-based, it did not look for specific behaviour, it was norm-based - the top 10% performers, whatever their specific marks, were selected. Because girls of the same age are generally more mature physically and intellectually than boys there were frequent occasions when higher performing girls were denied grammar school places in favour of lower performing boys.

Because of its mechanistic nature, it was an examination that children could be trained ... oops ... prepared for. I well recall the numerous ... err ... preparation sessions I suffered underwent. A whole day was set aside for the test itself and the rest of the school had a holiday. I think you would have remembered it.

As an aside, and I stand to be corrected, the PISA assessment, which apparently allows countries to compare their secondary education systems has much in common with the old 11-Plus: it is mechanistic, trainable and rewards performance rather than creativity.

you seem to have a very clear recollection of the exam and a rather sarcastic view of preparing for it .
And you also make the remark ''I think you would have remembered it '' as though I'm lying or something.
No I don't remember it , that's why I'm asking about it .

[Harrowby Hall]

It was not the kids fault if the local authorities did not build enough girls grammar schools. There were always co-eds. And there were Technical Highs, if you want to beat the drum about females being denied places then the logical step would be to bemoan that girls were not welcomed in the latter.

I am not beating any drum. I am merely describing the situation that existed in the 1950s and 1960s.

Are you beating a drum?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I cannot speak for the fifties because I was not there. But I can remember the sixties, and nobody grumbled that the system was unfair to girls, as I remember the grumble was that the system was unfair to late developers.

[Walter]

HH
 why are you attempting to derail this right from the start? It was not about 'girls'

Have you got some problem with the 11 plus  of 1968?

[Harrowby Hall]

Walter (and Humph)

You said that you had no recollection of taking the 11-Plus.

I have, I was there, I was merely describing what it was like. That's all. The past is another country - they do things differently there,

Additional comment

 And no, I was not trying to derail this. I was trying to keep it alive. Having spent most of my adult life in education (tertiary) it is a subject which, in general, interests me.

[Nearly Sane]

My memory of discussions on the  usefulness of the 11 plus chime  with HH's in that one of the issues was that the inequality in places for female vs male was a significant issue.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Walter (and Humph)

You said that you had no recollection of taking the 11-Plus.

I have, I was there, I was merely describing what it was like. That's all. The past is another country - they do things differently there,

Additional comment

 And no, I was not trying to derail this. I was trying to keep it alive. Having spent most of my adult life in education (tertiary) it is a subject which, in general, interests me.

I took the exam too, in 1971, I can even remember taking it. My recollection of the past seems to be different to yours.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

My memory of discussions on the  usefulness of the 11 plus chime  with HH's in that one of the issues was that the inequality in places for female vs male was a significant issue.

That is not my memory, as I mentioned above. As I recall the big argument about discrimination against females was not the eleven plus, but the GCE O Level.

[floo]

We all took the 11 plus in my home island, as I believe they still do today.

[Robbie]

it is still taken in many areas and those that don't do a separate exam for grammer schooL entry equivalent to 11 plus),  where there are still grammer schools.

What's big deal? Brighter kids should suffer at expense of those with less academic intelligence because of an ideal?  We have to work with what is.  Most parents do what they think is right for our kids at the time - hopefully with their agreemenr,

We all do the best for our kids regardless of ideology.

[Sebastian Toe]

The exam was officially abolished across the UK in 1965 with the introduction of comprehensive education. It was an attempt to even out the chances of pupils across the country. However, Northern Ireland chose to retain the system. In England, the comprehensive model was adopted but some grammar schools elected to become private schools, and some remained as grammars. Indeed, some local authorities in England kept grammar schools and the 11-plus, usually in middle-class areas, citing parental pressure.

http://tinyurl.com/11plusherald

[Walter]

Walter (and Humph)

You said that you had no recollection of taking the 11-Plus.

I have, I was there, I was merely describing what it was like. That's all. The past is another country - they do things differently there,

Additional comment

 And no, I was not trying to derail this. I was trying to keep it alive. Having spent most of my adult life in education (tertiary) it is a subject which, in general, interests me.

the point I was making was although it was a very significant time  in my life  I simply don't remember it or any of the stress or extra tuition you mention.
What I do remember was my parents receiving a letter saying which school I would be attending and an invitation to visit the school for a tour and meet the form tutor who would be looking after me when term started in the autumn and that's it.
My close and extended family then rallied round kitting me out with a uniforem PE kit satchel and all the rest of it .
Come September I was at grammar school. and the rest as they say.............

[Walter]

Also it is quite worrying that I DON'T REMEMBER . Or did I automatically go through without doing the test ?

Did that happen to some kids? That's what I'm trying to find out really .

[Humph Warden Bennett]

The exam was officially abolished across the UK in 1965 with the introduction of comprehensive education. It was an attempt to even out the chances of pupils across the country. However, Northern Ireland chose to retain the system. In England, the comprehensive model was adopted but some grammar schools elected to become private schools, and some remained as grammars. Indeed, some local authorities in England kept grammar schools and the 11-plus, usually in middle-class areas, citing parental pressure.

http://tinyurl.com/11plusherald

That is factually incorrect. In England the last sitting of the eleven plus was in the Spring of 1973, the comprehensive model was introduced in 1974.

[Walter]

That is factually incorrect. In England the last sitting of the eleven plus was in the Spring of 1973, the comprehensive model was introduced in 1974.

yes, that is what I found ont' web in the early hours of this morning .And halfway through my last term of 6th form the school changed to a comprehensive with many teachers leaving and a great sadness fell on the school.

Then a whole load of riff-raff  infiltrated the place and ruined it . I was glad to leave by then !

[Udayana]

Also it is quite worrying that I DON'T REMEMBER . Or did I automatically go through without doing the test ?

Did that happen to some kids? That's what I'm trying to find out really .

Maybe you just sailed through it without noticing? Your family may or may not have paid serious attention to it.

I remember taking it in '64 - it was not really mentioned in school - but my mum was really concerned that I get through to my chosen grammar school.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Maybe you just sailed through it without noticing? Your family may or may not have paid serious attention to it.

I remember taking it in '64 - it was not really mentioned in school - but my mum was really concerned that I get through to my chosen grammar school.

As I remember the exam was spoken of only rarely, and in hushed tones, when we actually took the exam we were not told what it was, although we all knew.

[Walter]

As I remember the exam was spoken of only rarely, and in hushed tones, when we actually took the exam we were not told what it was, although we all knew.

maybe that's the answer and I was too naïve to know .

anybody else got anything that could help me ?

cheers
Walter

[Robbie]

As I remember the exam was spoken of only rarely, and in hushed tones, when we actually took the exam we were not told what it was, although we all knew.

It wasn't abolished everywhere, I took it as did my sister and our children who are now aged between 28-22.

In areas where there was no 11+ schools set their own equivalent exam.  State schools.

I must admit I never thought anything of it, it was just something you did.  It wasn't scary.  How else can you sort out who goes to an academic school and who doesn't.   Not every area has wonderful comps,  The grammer schools near me are very good and most parents wanted their kids to go to one so the kids had to pass an exam.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

It wasn't abolished everywhere, I took it as did my sister and our children who are now aged between 28-22.

In areas where there was no 11+ schools set their own equivalent exam.  State schools.

I must admit I never thought anything of it, it was just something you did.  It wasn't scary.  How else can you sort out who goes to an academic school and who doesn't.   Not every area has wonderful comps,  The grammer schools near me are very good and most parents wanted their kids to go to one so the kids had to pass an exam.

In our neck of the woods, Grammars, Technical Highs, and Secondary Moderns were replaced by "Selective, and "Non Selective". I think that the furthest afield that I could have gone was Alleyn's.

[Harrowby Hall]

HH
 why are you attempting to derail this right from the start? It was not about 'girls'

Have you got some problem with the 11 plus  of 1968?

I've been out all day and so have only just come back to this.

If it's any help in this discussion, I took the 11-Plus twice - once at the age of 10 and again a year later. This was standard practice in Kesteven.

I went to the local boys grammar school in September 1953.