REMEMBRANCE SUNDAY.....

[Walter]

Should not be dominated by religion

 I have  attended many cenotaphs and military parades and silently stood in proud remembrance of the fallen on active service until the point the religious people suddenly take over the proceedings . To me it felt like a jolt , a slap in the face , one minute I'm remembering my dad , granddads and uncles and for no apparent reason the assembled crowd are expected to pray to some god or other . At that point I leave and go to the pub.

The act of remembrance totally ruined and usurped . I find it outrageous .

[floo]

Remembrance Sunday is very important to me. My home island was invaded by the Germans in WW2, 13 of whom lived in my childhood home. During my childhood when the gun was sounded for the silence at 11 am, it was expected that all traffic was halted until the gun went off again at the end of the two minutes. My husband and I always respect the silence.

[Walter]

Remembrance Sunday is very important to me. My home island was invaded by the Germans in WW2, 13 of whom lived in my childhood home. During my childhood when the gun was sounded for the silence at 11 am, it was expected that all traffic was halted until the gun went off again at the end of the two minutes. My husband and I always respect the silence.

You have a very interesting history Floo, I find the period of silence incredibly moving and respect it whenever I can .

[Nearly Sane]

I empathise with your reaction, Walter. To be honest I struggle though with the use of Remembrance Sunday as a sop of caring by successive govts and political parties.

[Anchorman]

At our war memorial, there is one prayer - only one, following last post and floors o the forest.
No-one is forced to pray or stay at the point, the silence having been observed.
Prayers are led by the minister, or a priest of the RC church, or a lay person - depending on the committee who organise the 15 minute ceremony.
Those who wish may then attend worship in the Kirk - thirty feet from the war memorial.
I'm not comfortable with the flags and stuff either - my grandfather fought in the Somme and swore if he ever got near a butchers' apron (union jack) again, he's wipe his a***e with it.
The british national anthem is played at the end of the kirk service after the benediction...for those who wish to acknowledge it.
Many of us sit down instead...that REALLY miffs the Orangemen....the only time the kirk will allow them to wear their 'finery' (for want of a better word( in a Sunday service.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I can only repeat my musings of a couple of years ago. Remembrance Sunday was increasingly an older persons commemoration until the Falklands War, which brought the experience of war to another generation. More recently, another generation still, has experienced war first hand, in Bosnia, and in Afghanistan.

Yes there is still a place for Remembrance Sunday. My objection is to the likes of the Murdoch newspapers using the same as an excuse to "bang the drum", and to try to sully anybody who has reservations about the role of our military as some kind of fifth column traitor. I hope that they will prove me wrong this year.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

At our war memorial, there is one prayer - only one, following last post and floors o the forest.
No-one is forced to pray or stay at the point, the silence having been observed.
Prayers are led by the minister, or a priest of the RC church, or a lay person - depending on the committee who organise the 15 minute ceremony.
Those who wish may then attend worship in the Kirk - thirty feet from the war memorial.
I'm not comfortable with the flags and stuff either - my grandfather fought in the Somme and swore if he ever got near a butchers' apron (union jack) again, he's wipe his a***e with it.
The british national anthem is played at the end of the kirk service after the benediction...for those who wish to acknowledge it.
Many of us sit down instead...that REALLY miffs the Orangemen....the only time the kirk will allow them to wear their 'finery' (for want of a better word( in a Sunday service.

FTR My grandfather fought at the Somme too. Grandfather ended the war as a Corporal, and was wounded twice. He turned down "fast track" promotion to Captain, since the mortality rate of officers was so high.

[Anchorman]

FTR My grandfather fought at the Somme too. Grandfather ended the war as a Corporal, and was wounded twice. He turned down "fast track" promotion to Captain, since the mortality rate of officers was so high.

This is where it gets complicated, HWB.
My grandad, born in 1889, was raised RC. He fought in the Somme in 1917....and was jstill of an age to be be recalled....to the least likely thing an RC would do....he was a black and tan in Ireland!
Talk about crazy mixed up kid?
Mind you, unless you wanted to go down the pits, there was nothing else for it, and serving there was a lot less dangerous than going underground, I suppose!

[Walter]

I empathise with your reaction, Walter. To be honest I struggle though with the use of Remembrance Sunday as a sop of caring by successive govts and political parties.

yes, all that sticks in my throat too

[Walter]

I can only repeat my musings of a couple of years ago. Remembrance Sunday was increasingly an older persons commemoration until the Falklands War, which brought the experience of war to another generation. More recently, another generation still, has experienced war first hand, in Bosnia, and in Afghanistan.

Yes there is still a place for Remembrance Sunday. My objection is to the likes of the Murdoch newspapers using the same as an excuse to "bang the drum", and to try to sully anybody who has reservations about the role of our military as some kind of fifth column traitor. I hope that they will prove me wrong this year.

yes , as a kid at school I fiercely debated against remembrance Sunday as it appeared to glorify war .
It wasn't until my early 20s I began to see things differently, I cant put a finger on why , maybe I just grew up or perhaps the massive physical trauma I experienced may have had some impact on my thinking.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

This is where it gets complicated, HWB.
My grandad, born in 1889, was raised RC. He fought in the Somme in 1917....and was jstill of an age to be be recalled....to the least likely thing an RC would do....he was a black and tan in Ireland!
Talk about crazy mixed up kid?
Mind you, unless you wanted to go down the pits, there was nothing else for it, and serving there was a lot less dangerous than going underground, I suppose!

Black and Tan? Could he not have made a conscientious objection?

[Anchorman]

Black and Tan? Could he not have made a conscientious objection?

His Catholicism wasn't too serious, HWB.
(In fact, according to a family Bible...verified from the bunch themselves, both he and his wife were baptised in January 1942...in the Bretheren!
I told you it was complicated.....I han't a clue about that till I found the Bible in an attic ten years after he died (he died in '69) Whether he was serious about his committment, I don't know - he never mentioned it to me - but the Bretheren didn't dip folk in a river in Scotland in January for nothing!

[ProfessorDavey]

Should not be dominated by religion

 I have  attended many cenotaphs and military parades and silently stood in proud remembrance of the fallen on active service until the point the religious people suddenly take over the proceedings . To me it felt like a jolt , a slap in the face , one minute I'm remembering my dad , granddads and uncles and for no apparent reason the assembled crowd are expected to pray to some god or other . At that point I leave and go to the pub.

The act of remembrance totally ruined and usurped . I find it outrageous .

I agree - I think that Remembrance commemorations shouldn't become religious services by the back door - as those that died were from all religions and none.

And actually the notion of 'religification' (is that even a word) of Remembrance isn't what was originally intended - the earliest remembrance events were clearly non religious, and of course the Cenotaph includes no religious symbolism at all.

Something else I don't like is the 'mission creep' - I think the November Remembrance events should remain (as they used to be) about those that fought and died in the two world wars - not every British solider in every war and hostility. Why - because both the scale of the slaughter and also that most in the world wars were conscripts, not professional soldiers makes those two wars completely different to all those since.

[Nearly Sane]

That seems to treat people's deaths as significant only as part of some question of size. It seems to argue that a death on the Somme is worth more than any number in Basra. It seems to me an oddly dehumanising argument.

[Anchorman]

The actual set up of the service....
Call
Silence
Last POst
(Optional Floors o the Forest)
Wreath laying
Prayer

Wasn't set down by the churches, but by the British Legion.
Most comemorations simply follow therir blueprint (I know mine does)
Anything else is an addon by a local group.

[Walter]

Something else I don't like is the 'mission creep' - I think the November Remembrance events should remain (as they used to be) about those that fought and died in the two world wars - not every British solider in every war and hostility. Why - because both the scale of the slaughter and also that most in the world wars were conscripts, not professional soldiers makes those two wars completely different to all those since.

don't you think that would be like saying
'you can only member dads father at the cenotaph , not your uncle Tom'

[ProfessorDavey]

That seems to treat people's deaths as significant only as part of some question of size. It seems to argue that a death on the Somme is worth more than any number in Basra. It seems to me an oddly dehumanising argument.

I don't think so - the scale is important as it is that element that is dehumanising - hence the basic notion of Remembrance - to have the opportunity to remember all those who died in the world wars when the industrial scale of the slaughter means we cannot ever remember them all individually. This nods to the whole concept of the tomb of the unknown warrior - again another key part of the original remembrance.

The death toll in more recent wars is small enough for individual remembrance.

So in 14 years fighting in Afghanistan 450 British service personnel died - in the first day of the Battle of the Somme 20,000 died (probably disproportionately in the first hour) - you cannot compare the two.

There is also, in my view, a key difference between a soldier who has freely chosen a career path in the armed forces fully recognising the dangers (but also presumably recognising the benefits of that career) and a conscript given no choice whatsoever.

[ProfessorDavey]

don't you think that would be like saying
'you can only member dads father at the cenotaph , not your uncle Tom'

Not really - my personal opinion is that the traditional November Remembrance should be for those who fought and died in the world wars as their scale is totally different to other more recent conflicts. To suggest some kind of equivalence somehow demeans the 'never again' message.

[Sebastian Toe]

Something else I don't like is the 'mission creep' - I think the November Remembrance events should remain (as they used to be) about those that fought and died in the two world wars - not every British solider in every war and hostility. Why - because both the scale of the slaughter and also that most in the world wars were conscripts, not professional soldiers makes those two wars completely different to all those since.

Does the Korean war not count?
There were about 100,000 Brits involved in that conflict with around 1000 casualties.

[ProfessorDavey]

Does the Korean war not count?
There were about 100,000 Brits involved in that conflict with around 1000 casualties.

I'm not saying that other conflicts shouldn't be commemorated - but not at this time - the November commemoration should be for the 2 world wars.

And again 1000 deaths over a 3 year period is incomparable to 20,000 in one day - there were almost certainly more deaths in the first hour of the Somme than in the entire Korean war.

[floo]

Not really - my personal opinion is that the traditional November Remembrance should be for those who fought and died in the world wars as their scale is totally different to other more recent conflicts. To suggest some kind of equivalence somehow demeans the 'never again' message.

I think Remembrance Sunday should remember not only those who died in WW1 and WW2, but all the wars since then as well.

[Nearly Sane]

Not really - my personal opinion is that the traditional November Remembrance should be for those who fought and died in the world wars as their scale is totally different to other more recent conflicts. To suggest some kind of equivalence somehow demeans the 'never again' message.

Except surely the 'never gain' message is precisely demeaned by the wars after it, and degrades their specific individual sacrifice?

[ProfessorDavey]

I think Remembrance Sunday should remember not only those who died in WW1 and WW2, but all the wars since then as well.

We disagree then

[floo]

We disagree then

So how should we remember those who have died in the many wars since?

[ProfessorDavey]

Except surely the 'never gain' message is precisely demeaned by the wars after it, and degrades their specific individual sacrifice?

Not really - quite the reverse - while we simply add the next war and the next British service death (however rare) we somehow create a culture where we simply accept war as a way of life (albeit now professionalised and in far off places) and that all is kind of OK so long as we 'remember' them once a year.

The other problem to my mind is the focus away from the world wars and towards recent conflicts shift the focus away from remembrance and toward a more jingoistic approach to 'big up' our troops. Turning it into something more akin to armed forces day rather than remembrance.

It is clear that others here don't agree - but that is my view - the traditional remembrance commemorations should be for the world wars only.