REMEMBRANCE SUNDAY.....

[ProfessorDavey]

outrageous. Mind you its typical of that failed self promoting would-be king of Scotland . If I were him I'd be embarrassed to  appear in public in the first place , never mind the 'poppy'

You can even buy ones with the poppy next to the badge of your favourite football team.

[ProfessorDavey]

You can even buy ones with the poppy next to the badge of your favourite football team.

And poppies are now being described as 'Great gifts'

Since when did a symbolic marker of remembrance for those that died in the world wars become a 'gift'.

https://www.poppyscotlandstore.com

[ProfessorDavey]

And poppies are now being described as 'Great gifts'

Since when did a symbolic marker of remembrance for those that died in the world wars become a 'gift'.

https://www.poppyscotlandstore.com

Or how about a poppy poop bag holder for picking up dog turds!!

https://www.poppyscotlandstore.com/poppyscotland-home-gifts/poppyscotland-pets/poppyscotland-poop-bag-holder.html

Always important that our pets remember the 1.2 million service personnel (that's just the British) who died in the world wars - or is this for all the animals that died!

You can also get a personalised Father's day mug!

[Walter]

Or how about a poppy poop bag holder for picking up dog turds!!

https://www.poppyscotlandstore.com/poppyscotland-home-gifts/poppyscotland-pets/poppyscotland-poop-bag-holder.html

Always important that our pets remember the 1.2 million service personnel (that's just the British) who died in the world wars - or is this for all the animals that died!

You can also get a personalised Father's day mug!

fuck me, they must have some fresh-out-of -uni prospective advertising agency executive on their books sitting in a little office coming up with 'blue sky thinking' money spinning ideas with no understanding or respect . Or maybe its just me?

[ProfessorDavey]

fuck me, they must have some fresh-out-of -uni prospective advertising agency executive on their books sitting in a little office coming up with 'blue sky thinking' money spinning ideas with no understanding or respect . Or maybe its just me?

No it isn't just you - but sadly this speaks volumes about the shift from what Remembrance used to be - solemn reflection and remembrance of those that died in the world wars and also to reflect on the horrors of war more generally, towards a 'get behind our boys (and girls)', 'show your support for our plucky troops' jingoistic patriotism and militarism. The irony being that jingoistic patriotism and militarism (in many countries) was a major factor in the cause of WW1 and the fall out from WW1 being the major cause of WW2.

Frankly I despair.

[Nearly Sane]

I find the products odd (golf balls?) but if people buy them and it contributes to supporting ex service people, I'm not sure I can object. I note many of the football ones have sold out, and it's not a new thing to think of the two things as being connected, see http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0245n4h.  It's either a good cause to you or it isn't and I am not sure there is a 'right' way to remember the dead. There feels an element of snobbism in the judgement.


I am uncomfortable with the use of flags or national symbols as worn by Salmond or Leo Varadkar ( http://www.thejournal.ie/leo-varadkar-poppy-shamrock-3684354-Nov2017/ ) but I don't remember a golden age when there was not a form of jingoism about remembrance. That England and Germany will at football match wear armbands, as Rhiannon posted, feels both right and wrong to me. As might be obvious, I am deeply conflicted on this. As a a pacifist, I struggle with how we approach this as it has always seemed  too nationalistic to me.

[Nearly Sane]

I also whenever the subject arises on this board find myself turning to Fastflint's post on the best bits thread as saved by the much missed and worried about Gonnagle.



http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=9431.0

[ProfessorDavey]

I find the products odd (golf balls?) but if people buy them and it contributes to supporting ex service people, I'm not sure I can object. I note many of the football ones have sold out, and it's not a new thing to think of the two things as being connected, see http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0245n4h.  It's either a good cause to you or it isn't and I am not sure there is a 'right' way to remember the dead. There feels an element of snobbism in the judgement.

But the primary cause here is remembrance, not raising money. And given that virtually all of those remembered are themselves now dead (either during the world wars or subsequently) the need for fundraising is massively diminished compared to how it used to be. And if it about raising money for 'our boys and girls' - i.e. for current troops, then count me out as they are professionals and their funding does and should come from the tax payer. And otherwise there are new charities that specifically focus on current troops - most notable the massively successful 'Help for Heroes'. Sadly Remembrance and its campaign have kind of morphed into Help for Heroes with a more recognisable symbol, which I find sad.

And no I do not think it is snobbish to think that putting a poppy symbol on a dog poo bag with the slogan 'I'm a poppy pet' and describing it as a 'Handy gift for pet lovers' - I think it is disrespectful to the 1.2 million British troops who died in the world wars and the countless others who died in those two conflicts.

[Nearly Sane]

The primary cause in raising money from poppies isn't and has never been 'remembrance'. So that they sell the dog poop bag to raise money seems not really different to me.

[ProfessorDavey]

I am uncomfortable with the use of flags or national symbols as worn by Salmond or Leo Varadkar ( http://www.thejournal.ie/leo-varadkar-poppy-shamrock-3684354-Nov2017/ ) but I don't remember a golden age when there was not a form of jingoism about remembrance. That England and Germany will at football match wear armbands, as Rhiannon posted, feels both right and wrong to me. As might be obvious, I am deeply conflicted on this. As a a pacifist, I struggle with how we approach this as it has always seemed  too nationalistic to me.

I am glad that you feel uncomfortable about this, but I find it tricky to reconcile this part of your post with the earlier part that claimed:

'I find the products odd (golf balls?) but if people buy them and it contributes to supporting ex service people, I'm not sure I can object. ... It's either a good cause to you or it isn't and I am not sure there is a 'right' way to remember the dead.'

So these dual symbol products with national flags are all raising money. You seem a tad conflicted.

I am uncomfortable with both poppies with national flags (or football teams) and also poppies on dog poo bags - both seem inappropriate and disrespectful.

There has long been a tension between those that see Remembrance as a solemn commemoration for those that died in the world wars, with rejection of militarism and jingoism, and those that see it as about 'our brave British heroes'. I am, of course firmly in the first camp. But I think the tension has increased greatly since the 90s when the Remembrance events were extended beyond the world wars. And particularly since this has meant that, for the very first time, Remembrance events include ongoing conflicts - this was never the case previously, and creates division as to what to do if you strongly support the need for remembrance of the dead of those horrible mass laughter conflicts that were the world wars, but disagree with current military action.

[ProfessorDavey]

The primary cause in raising money from poppies isn't and has never been 'remembrance'. So that they sell the dog poop bag to raise money seems not really different to me.

That is arguable not true as much of the money raised supports (or supported in the past) building and maintaining remembrance sites, educational activities and also events that allow ex-service personnel to visit the war sites, often also involving ex service personnel from the enemy.

It is of course true that the monies also helped to support those injured or left behind, but the vast, vast majority of those are now dead (even if you allow for the mission creep of adding new conflicts from 1945 onward). In the 1950s (for example) there would have been literally millions of people who were close relatives of those that had died and in need of support or injured in conflict themselves. Today that number will have dwindled to perhaps a few thousand, and there are new charities specifically developed to support them anyhow.

[Nearly Sane]

Strangely when I wrote that I was deeply conflicted on this, that meant that I was deeply conflicted on it, so pointing out that I might be a 'tad conflicted' seems odd. I think though that there is a difference between something you might see as tasteless such as the dog poop bags and something that is about some form of nationalist statement.

[Nearly Sane]

That is arguable not true as much of the money raised supports (or supported in the past) building and maintaining remembrance sites, educational activities and also events that allow ex-service personnel to visit the war sites, often also involving ex service personnel from the enemy.

It is of course true that the monies also helped to support those injured or left behind, but the vast, vast majority of those are now dead (even if you allow for the mission creep of adding new conflicts from 1945 onward). In the 1950s (for example) there would have been literally millions of people who were close relatives of those that had died and in need of support or injured in conflict themselves. Today that number will have dwindled to perhaps a few thousand, and there are new charities specifically developed to support them anyhow.

Which is irrelevant to the poppy raising money for that cause and the dog poop bag being for the same cause. Either you think it's a good cause or you don't.

[ProfessorDavey]

Strangely when I wrote that I was deeply conflicted on this, that meant that I was deeply conflicted on it, so pointing out that I might be a 'tad conflicted' seems odd. I think though that there is a difference between something you might see as tasteless such as the dog poop bags and something that is about some form of nationalist statement.

Sorry let me rephrase and perhaps you can clarify in case I have got that wrong.

I took you comment that you were deeply conflicted about nation flags being included with the poppy - I was talking about the conflict between being uncomfortable about a poppy plus a saltire, but not about a poppy on a dog poo bag.

For the record I am uncomfortable about both - you are correct that conflating remembrance with nationalism (as in the saltire) is wrong, but I also think that taking such a poignant symbol and trivialising it in the manner of the dog poo bag is also wrong, firstly because its is disrespectful, but secondly because (just as with the national symbol) it fundamentally jars with what the poppy symbol is there to represent. Both are equally bad in my view.

[Nearly Sane]

Sorry let me rephrase and perhaps you can clarify in case I have got that wrong.

I took you comment that you were deeply conflicted about nation flags being included with the poppy - I was talking about the conflict between being uncomfortable about a poppy plus a saltire, but not about a poppy on a dog poo bag.

For the record I am uncomfortable about both - you are correct that conflating remembrance with nationalism (as in the saltire) is wrong, but I also think that taking such a poignant symbol and trivialising it in the manner of the dog poo bag is also wrong, firstly because its is disrespectful, but secondly because (just as with the national symbol) it fundamentally jars with what the poppy symbol is there to represent. Both are equally bad in my view.

My 'confliction' is wider than the marketing of dog poop bags and flags. As covered in the post as a pacifist there has always been elements of jingoism for me in out remembrance. That Germany and England are about to play a football match where they were armbands with poppies seems the right message but the wrong theatre. Again if you support the 'cause' though it seems to me you end up accepting the dog poop bags if they work. And again as I coveted while the football poppies seem odd, they aren't in terms of the history of teams like Hearts.

[ProfessorDavey]

As covered in the post as a pacifist there has always been elements of jingoism for me in out remembrance.

Upthread the White Poppy was mentioned - its history is specifically linked to the pacifist movement. Out of interest as a pacifist, do you chose to wear a white poppy rather than a red one, as a number of my friends do?

That Germany and England are about to play a football match where they were armbands with poppies seems the right message but the wrong theatre.

I think this is rather appropriate and poignant - and I think it is right that both sides will wear the poppy and hopefully that the dead from both sides in the world wars will be remembered. I think this is better than some previous (and somewhat confrontational) instances whether the English FA wanted unilateral wearing a the poppy and allowed Daily Mail-type plucky Brits against those diabolical foreigner narratives to develop.

Again if you support the 'cause' though it seems to me you end up accepting the dog poop bags if they work.

Work as what - as a symbol of solemn remembrance - somehow I struggle to see how they can. If you mean by raising money - well of course they raise money - but the question then must be asked of an organisation, 'what are you raising money for' and also 'are all money-raising approaches fine, provided they bring in cash'. I think the British Legion is struggling with the first question, and I hope the answer to the second is - no - there are some things that we should not do (or sell) even if it raises money.

And again as I coveted while the football poppies seem odd, they aren't in terms of the history of teams like Hearts.

Yes, of course I understand that - and it might be reasonable were these badges restricted to teams that had a particularly poignant connection to the WW1, but that isn't the case - you can get them for pretty well any club.

[floo]

although I wear a poppy what pisses me off is the BBC who appear to insist that every man and his dog who appear on live telly MUST wear a poppy at all costs .
I imagine some sap of an intern running round the studios with a box of poppies pinning them onto anything and everything that's going to be in shot . I'm surprised they're not pinned on peoples backs just in case they turn round.

I didn't have a problem with that when I was taking part in the Politics Show, close to Nov 11th, a few years ago.

[Nearly Sane]

Upthread the White Poppy was mentioned - its history is specifically linked to the pacifist movement. Out of interest as a pacifist, do you chose to wear a white poppy rather than a red one, as a number of my friends do?
I think this is rather appropriate and poignant - and I think it is right that both sides will wear the poppy and hopefully that the dead from both sides in the world wars will be remembered. I think this is better than some previous (and somewhat confrontational) instances whether the English FA wanted unilateral wearing a the poppy and allowed Daily Mail-type plucky Brits against those diabolical foreigner narratives to develop.
Work as what - as a symbol of solemn remembrance - somehow I struggle to see how they can. If you mean by raising money - well of course they raise money - but the question then must be asked of an organisation, 'what are you raising money for' and also 'are all money-raising approaches fine, provided they bring in cash'. I think the British Legion is struggling with the first question, and I hope the answer to the second is - no - there are some things that we should not do (or sell) even if it raises money.
Yes, of course I understand that - and it might be reasonable were these badges restricted to teams that had a particularly poignant connection to the WW1, but that isn't the case - you can get them for pretty well any club.

Thanks for this very open post - raises very interesting questions and gets to the heart of the issue.

I wear no poppy - even before the term 'virtue signalling' was invented I felt that it was virtue signalling. I contribute to both funds but me wearing a poppy of whatever colour seems to me useless other than making me feel good.

The problem with the poppy at the football is we are back at it being a form of virtue signalling. That UEFA have accepted it wasn't a partisan signal is good but we end up at random poppies because we can.

Absolutely the question of what are you raising money for is relevant, but to me if you agree with the cause the method is  secondary. If you want serviceman to be better provided for then contribute - if not don't. If you want a dog poop bad as part of it, it isn't my choice but I'm not going to object if it is someone else's

I doubt any club that existed at the time of the WWs was untouched by tragedy. I am sure that almost any club now has ex servicemen supporters. If people see that as a valid way of showing their support then fine with me. again not my choice.

[Walter]

perhaps they could sell a fake dog turd pile with  red and white poppies sticking out the top to show how shit war is !!!

all for a good cause, all in bad taste

[ProfessorDavey]

Thanks for this very open post - raises very interesting questions and gets to the heart of the issue.

I wear no poppy - even before the term 'virtue signalling' was invented I felt that it was virtue signalling. I contribute to both funds but me wearing a poppy of whatever colour seems to me useless other than making me feel good.

Thanks for your honesty on this. As I've mentioned previously I do wear a traditional red poppy, and therefore contribute to the poppy appeal. I do not wear a white poppy as I am not a pacifist. I also do not contribute to Help for Heroes as a do not like their approach which seems largely militaristic (support our 'professional' troops).

I get what you are saying about virtue signalling, but we also have a difficulty when something becomes expected, almost required, that not to do so becomes a kind of alternative virtue signalling. I don't think that is right, but it is where we have got to - so were someone not to wear a poppy on the BBC it would now become assumed that they are not wearing one 'for a reason'.

The problem with the poppy at the football is we are back at it being a form of virtue signalling. That UEFA have accepted it wasn't a partisan signal is good but we end up at random poppies because we can.

I'm not entirely comfortable with this either, but see it as much better in a bipartisan way than a partisan manner, as had been suggested in the past.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, I get that not wearing a poppy can be seen as a form of virtue signalling but I've been doing it for so long that if I were to wear one it would seem a form of double reverse virtue signalling. (How complex things can be).


I agree that the wearing of the armbands is better as bi partisan rather than partisan but were I not to be the useless footballer that I am, and were to represent a country, it feels now as if any non wearing of the poppy is made some form of treason.

[ProfessorDavey]

I doubt any club that existed at the time of the WWs was untouched by tragedy. I am sure that almost any club now has ex servicemen supporters. If people see that as a valid way of showing their support then fine with me. again not my choice.

But you could say the same about virtually any organisation in which case why not poppy superimposed on the Sainsbury's logo etc etc. While it isn't disrespectful in the manner of the dog poo bag it still does not seem appropriate, and less so when aligned with a symbol with clear political overtones - e.g. Salmond's poppy on a Scottish saltire.

The reason I mentioned that perhaps Hearts was more reasonable than others is due to the fact that their players volunteered en masse at the start of the war in a deliberate move - I assume that is what you are referring to.

[Anchorman]

If I can get hold of a white poppy, I'll wear it alongside the red.
It isn't always easy in a semi rural are, and I refuse to pay a cuple of quid on postal fees.
I think two of my greates 'heroes' - one athiest, one Christian, taught me much.
Both served in the war; one, George McCleod, as an officer in the trenchs of Flanders, where he got an MC for his bravery; the other, Hamish Henderson served in the 51st Highlanders in sicily and Italy in WWII.
McLeod became a minister of the Kirk, working in Govan, founding the Iona Community - and a pacifist, founder member of Scottish CND.
Henderson became a writer, collector of poetry, prose and song in Scots, and no mean poet himself - and a pacifist.
Irespect those veterans who march to the colours; I respect equally those who will not nor will recognise those colours again.

[ProfessorDavey]

I agree that the wearing of the armbands is better as bi partisan rather than partisan but were I not to be the useless footballer that I am, and were to represent a country, it feels now as if any non wearing of the poppy is made some form of treason.

That's right and same with the BBC.

What I find most disquieting about all this is that the recent development that not wearing a poppy seems tantamount to treason has happened at exactly the same time as the focus of the poppy has shifted from remembrance of the dead of the world wars towards getting behind our troops in ongoing conflicts. No coincidence I feel.

[Nearly Sane]

But you could say the same about virtually any organisation in which case why not poppy superimposed on the Sainsbury's logo etc etc. While it isn't disrespectful in the manner of the dog poo bag it still does not seem appropriate, and less so when aligned with a symbol with clear political overtones - e.g. Salmond's poppy on a Scottish saltire.

The reason I mentioned that perhaps Hearts was more reasonable than others is due to the fact that their players volunteered en masse at the start of the war in a deliberate move - I assume that is what you are referring to.

But surely, as we have already covered, the poppy has 'clear political overtones'? I don't agree with Salmond's approach but were one of my friends from the Outer Hebrides to wear something similar to mark the sheet numbers of dead from there, I would struggle to see what was wrong. Again with Varadkar's shamrock poppy, it doesn't feel 'as bad' as the Saltire.

And yes, as already posted the story of the Hearts team seems to create a justification for the symbol but I'm not sure then what standard you need to justify such a badge.