Author Topic: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?  (Read 29281 times)

Anchorman

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #125 on: March 10, 2018, 11:45:00 AM »
What evidence is there that John was his brother?
   

None, I hope.
The brother in question - the future leader of the Jerusalem Church - was James; presumably the oldest surviving child of Mary and Joseph after the resurrection.
My post referred to the fact that James would have been the natural choice to commit the care of Jesus' mother to, but he wasn't there - and possibly wasn't Christian - at the time. John, James (the younger)'s brother, was.
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SteveH

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #126 on: March 10, 2018, 11:47:46 AM »
No, it's a claim.

Where is the evidence to support the claim?
The gospel writers were there, they knew Jesus and James, and they had no obvious ideological reason for claiming that James was jesus' brother if he wasn't.
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SteveH

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #127 on: March 10, 2018, 12:00:46 PM »
Sigh. If I pay £10,000 to Oxfam, will you do a permanent flounce?
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Anchorman

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #128 on: March 10, 2018, 12:04:19 PM »
Maybe he was related, maybe not.  The gospels aren't evidence, they were written well after Jesus was dead, much of what they record is less than credible. As I have said boringly often, truly dead people don't come back to life, but if Jesus did resurrect, why didn't he stick around down here instead of flying off up to heaven?
Well after? Then you might as well dismiss Tacitus, Setonius, etc as sources of Roman history; the earliest manuscripts we have of them date from the eighth century. However, we have a fragment of papyrus reused as packing for an Egyptian mummy mask dating to around AD 90. Note, "Re-used" - that means the papyrus had to have been written before AD 90 - since it was worn out, probably a number of years before. It's from Mark's Gospel, by the way. How near to the events would you consider reliable? six centuries or less than five decades? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/papyrus-found-mummy-mask-may-be-oldest-known-copy-gospel-180953962/
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 12:07:59 PM by Anchorman »
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

SteveH

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #129 on: March 10, 2018, 12:13:04 PM »
Well after? Then you might as well dismiss Tacitus, Setonius, etc as sources of Roman history; the earliest manuscripts we have of them date from the eighth century. However, we have a fragment of papyrus reused as packing for an Egyptian mummy mask dating to around AD 90. Note, "Re-used" - that means the papyrus had to have been written before AD 90 - since it was worn out, probably a number of years before. It's from Mark's Gospel, by the way. How near to the events would you consider reliable? six centuries or less than five decades? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/papyrus-found-mummy-mask-may-be-oldest-known-copy-gospel-180953962/
Stop confusing her with facts, you bully!
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Anchorman

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #130 on: March 10, 2018, 02:14:50 PM »
But I don't regard the gospel accounts as reliable. Nothing was apparently written down when Jesus was alive, so the gospel writers were recording hearsay many years later, which is often not factual.
   



Whether you believe them is not relevent, but you cannot disregard them as documents written within an acceptable time of the alledged facts occurng.
Were you to do this, you might as well dismiss Manetho, Tacitus, Pliny, Suetonius, Bede, etc - all of whom are core resources - to a point - for historians ov various disciplines, all writing after the events they describe, and three of them only available to us in copied manuscripts which are many centuries after the events themselves.
The fragment I described above - and to which I gave you a link - had to have been written before 90 AD.
I'd contend, knowing how strong papyrus can be, that the fragment was so degraded through use that it might have been a decade or more in circulation before it was incorporated into the cartonage mask...that meansbetween 70-80 AD.
Let's assume this fragment was a copy of a copy of the original MSS. That puts the original between 65-70 AD - thirty or so years after the events it contains.
Why do you dismiss this as history, but accept Tacitus, Suetonius, Bede - or, for that matter, Shauma, Starkey, Beard - modern historians, not all of them to my taste, who nevertheless write on things which happened tens, hundreds or thousands of years ago?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #131 on: March 10, 2018, 02:27:47 PM »
The link says the text hasn't been published but is thought to be from the Gospel of Mark. Is that still the case?

Also it says the papyrus used for such masks was often reused. Often being key.

Of course the situation could be as you suggest but the article seems less strong on it than you are. Do you know more than is included in the article?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 02:37:05 PM by Maeght »

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #132 on: March 10, 2018, 04:19:01 PM »
Maybe he was related, maybe not.  The gospels aren't evidence, they were written well after Jesus was dead, much of what they record is less than credible. As I have said boringly often, truly dead people don't come back to life, but if Jesus did resurrect, why didn't he stick around down here instead of flying off up to heaven?

So,if we replace credible with possible (from another thread) surely the whole point is that Jesus did things which are not possible for normal human beings. Miracles. The argument that people don't come back to life so Jesus couldn't surely misses the point.

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #133 on: March 10, 2018, 04:50:38 PM »
But the miracles he is reported to have performed aren't likely, anymore than those that are claimed by that scam merchant Benny Hinn.

How can you judge how likely miracles are?!!?

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #134 on: March 10, 2018, 05:04:33 PM »
Oh come on, Jesus is supposed to have raised Lazarus from the dead, walked on water, turned water into wine, fed the five thousand and lots lot more which don't ring true.

They wouldn't for a normal human being but if Jesus was divine or similar then of course they could be possible. That's the point.

Quote
Hinn has claimed amputated limbs have regrown during his healing hocus pocus. My husband's brother and sister-in-law, who are evangelical Christians, went to watch Hinn in action when they were in the US a good few years ago. They said he was entertaining but they didn't believe for one minute he was the genuine article.

Hinn isn't Jesus so irrelevant.

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #135 on: March 10, 2018, 05:14:18 PM »
Jesus was no less human than Hinn, imo. Even the Bible doesn't paint him as a perfect person.

Of course that is your opinion (not a fact) but that doesn't make the 'not credible, not possible' argument any better. It is a flawed argument which misses the point.

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #136 on: March 10, 2018, 05:30:07 PM »
My opinion yes, but as there is no evidence, which can be substantiated that Jesus did the things claimed for him I reckon the default position is to be very sceptical.

If yoh make a claim you need evidence of course.  To be skeptical is fine. To argue that things considered mirsvles ard not credible or possible because they don,'tnormally happen is a flawed argument and misses the point about miracles.

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2018, 05:37:34 PM »
Have you actually witnessed a so called 'miracle' for which there was no natural explanation?

No. So?

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #138 on: March 10, 2018, 05:46:02 PM »
So how do you know they have any validity, which is what you appear to be arguing?

No I'm not.,please read what I said again.

Anchorman

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #139 on: March 10, 2018, 05:56:01 PM »
The link says the text hasn't been published but is thought to be from the Gospel of Mark. Is that still the case? Also it says the papyrus used for such masks was often reused. Often being key. Of course the situation could be as you suggest but the article seems less strong on it than you are. Do you know more than is included in the article?
There are a few papers on the Academia site on the fragmeent, Maeght. And, yes, papyrus was used as filling for cartonage in Romano-Egyptian funerary masks and coffins...we've gleaned quite a lot of stuff - legal docmens, shopping lists and love letters - from them. Papyrus is strong stuff - newly made, it takes a bit of effort to tear it. No-one would destroy a newly written papyrus and use it as cartonage - for starters, because it would be relatively new, it would require to be pulped to break it down and help it absorb the water and gum. Used papyrus - papyrus that has been handled a lot; in other words, scrap paper, makes far better base material for cartonage. Therefore, given thatthis mask cannot be dated after AD90, it had to have been composed of papyrus which had seen better days...papyrus which was no longer fit for purpose. Wouldn't you say that puts an earlier date on when the actual papyrus was copied?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2018, 06:00:01 PM »
There are a few papers on the Academia site on the fragmeent, Maeght. And, yes, papyrus was used as filling for cartonage in Romano-Egyptian funerary masks and coffins...we've gleaned quite a lot of stuff - legal docmens, shopping lists and love letters - from them. Papyrus is strong stuff - newly made, it takes a bit of effort to tear it. No-one would destroy a newly written papyrus and use it as cartonage - for starters, because it would be relatively new, it would require to be pulped to break it down and help it absorb the water and gum. Used papyrus - papyrus that has been handled a lot; in other words, scrap paper, makes far better base material for cartonage. Therefore, given thatthis mask cannot be dated after AD90, it had to have been composed of papyrus which had seen better days...papyrus which was no longer fit for purpose. Wouldn't you say that puts an earlier date on when the actual papyrus was copied?

I'd say it is possible yes. What do the papers on the Academia site say?

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #141 on: March 11, 2018, 08:46:42 AM »
Anyway as far as I am concerned Jesus died 2000 years ago and stayed dead, end of story.

Do you accept that that is your opinion and not a fact?

Do you accept that the 'not credible, not possible' argument is flawed?

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #142 on: March 11, 2018, 09:07:17 AM »
Of course it is my opinion. It is MY opinion a truly dead person doesn't come back to life again, and it will stay my opinion until there is verifiable evidence to the contrary.

Not a fact was the key part of the question.

And do you accept that the 'not credible, not possible' argument is flawed? It appears not since you have repeated it above.

Anchorman

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #143 on: March 11, 2018, 09:15:16 AM »
I'd say it is possible yes. What do the papers on the Academia site say?
     




I take it, then, that you retract your earlier assertion - in the light of evidence - that the earliest accounts of Jesus were written, as you put it, "Hundreds of years" after the events?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #144 on: March 11, 2018, 09:28:28 AM »
     




I take it, then, that you retract your earlier assertion - in the light of evidence - that the earliest accounts of Jesus were written, as you put it, "Hundreds of years" after the events?

Not me your honour :-)

Anchorman

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #145 on: March 11, 2018, 09:44:19 AM »
Not me your honour :-)
   





Dammit!
Pressed my quote link at the wrong bit....I've just reconfigured the layout of this thin g on my computer, and I'm still shouting at it.
Please ignore that bit....


....on the other hand....

Littleroses, it was meant for you!
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Maeght

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #146 on: March 11, 2018, 09:49:59 AM »
Dammit!
Pressed my quote link at the wrong bit....I've just reconfigured the layout of this thin g on my computer, and I'm still shouting at it.
Please ignore that bit....

No probs.

Robbie

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #147 on: March 11, 2018, 05:02:56 PM »
March 10, 2018, 12:04:19 PM in reply to Anchorman on this thread:

LR:But I don't regard the gospel accounts as reliable. Nothing was apparently written down when Jesus was alive, so the gospel writers were recording hearsay many years later, which is often not factual.
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Anchorman

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #148 on: March 11, 2018, 06:52:21 PM »
Precisely, I said many years later, I didn't say hundreds of years.
   



So how many years is 'many'? 290? 30? 50?
I wouldn't say my memory's that bad....I can easily remember the events of thirty five or so years ago quite well.
That's well within the scope of the original writer of Mark, if the Egypt example is a very used copy of a copy datingonly 60 or so years after the event.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Robbie

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Re: Why didn't Jesus appear to his mother?
« Reply #149 on: March 11, 2018, 07:53:26 PM »
I seem to remember being taught the gospels were written between sixty and a hundred & something years AD. More info regarding dates may have come to light since then though.
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest